A DISCOURSE OF DISPUTATIONS Chiefly concerning matters of Religion, with Animadverſions on two printed Books, (mentioned in the Contents following next after the Epiſtles:) The latter whereof, at the requeſt of Dr. John Bryan, (for Cenſure and Advice) being ſeriouſly peruſed; The Author of it, JOHN ONLEY, is thereupon convinced of Error, Slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miſcarriage, not onely towards him, but all the Reformed Churches of the world, out of the way of his moſt affected ſingularity.
By John Ley, Rector of the Church of Solyhull in Warwickſh.
Anſwer him not.
Non de Adverſario victoriā, ſed de mendacio quaerimus veritatē.
WHERETO IS ADDED A Conſolatory Letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed Son Mr. NATHANIEL BRYAN: Which immediately followeth after the Diſcourſe of Diſputations.
LONDON, Printed for Nath: Webb and Will: Grantham, at the black Bear in St. Pauls Church-yard, over againſt the little North door, MDCLVIII.
IN the publication of theſe papers, I could not but conceive you had ſome intereſt, as a friend to the cauſe and perſon moſt medled within them; nor to him onely, but to all the(a)(a)Dr. Briaes. Dr. Grow. Mr. Baſnet. three religious and learned Miniſters of your City, wherein (methinks) you much reſemble Geneva for number and quality, when it enjoyed an holy Triumvirat of Farellus, Viret, & Calvin, in that order Beza nameth them in the life of Calvin, and giveth them their ſeveral characters, ſo as of all three to make up one(b)(b)Saepe mihi in ment•m veni•p•rfectum quodammedo videri poſſe paſtorem qui ex tribusillis eſſet conflatus. Beza in vitam Calvin. p. 8. perfect Paſtor. I ſhall doe thoſe renowned reformers no wrong, if I ſay of your Preachers, that each of them is complete in himſelfe without his partners: Such hath been the proficience of the Pulpit (both by preaching and praying) ſince their times, and more in England then elſewhere; as divers Travellers (who have had opportunity to know, and ability to judge; and many forraign Divines, who underſtanding our language, have read our printed Sermons, and compared them together with thoſe of other Nations) have cenſured. I teſtifie this truth the rather, becauſe, though there be ſome difference in judgement, (bleſſed be God it is not great) yet there is no diſſenting in affection among them. Religious duties are unanimouſly performed: Chriſtian ſociety and Miniſterial brotherhood ſweetly maintained, and all offices ſuitable to ſuch relations, mutually and affectionately exchanged: to whoſe concord and communion, I ſhall make bold to apply His Highneſs Eulogium of the Army in his Narrative from Briſtol, Sept. 14. 1645. in(c)(c)Engl. Recovery. part. 2. p. 118. theſe words; Presbyterians, Independents, all have here the ſame Spirit of Faith and Prayer, the ſame preſence and anſwer, they agree here, and have no names of difference: Pity it is it ſhould be otherwiſe any where.
Now as I have matched your City with Geneva for your Miniſters, ſo I wiſh your City-Magiſtrates may match theirs in vigilancy, vigour, and good effects of Government, who (as Bodin, a famous French Papiſt, maketh the report of them)(d)(d)Ridiculum eſt ad legem eſſe bonos; allam cenſuram quâ nil magis ac divinius cogitari potuit ad coercendas hominū cupiditates latenter primùm, & amicè, quam ſequitur animadverſio magiſtratuum. Jo. Bod. Method. Hiſt. c. 6. p. 245. Ita fit ut quae legibus nuſquam, &c. igitur nullae meretrices, nullae ebrietates, nullae ſaltationes, nulli menaici, null otioſi in ea civitate reperiuntur. Ibid. holding it a ridiculous thing, to be good onely by good Lawes, follow Conſiſtorian Cenſures againſt the Contumacious, with civil Animadverſion of the Magiſtrates. Hence it commeth to paſs that thoſe vices which no where elſe, are there reſtrained, ſo that there is no whoredom, no drunkenneſs, no dancing, no beggars, no idle perſons to be found in that City.
My hopes come up the higher toward my wiſhes hereof, becauſe you do not onely encourage your able, watchful, and painful Paſtors many wayes eſpecially, as the Apoſtle admoniſheth, Heb. 13.17. by your Chriſtian compliance with their holy Miniſteries, (ſeconded by their exemplary practice) but you do the like to your learned, pious, and induſtrious Schoolmaſter,(e)(e)Mr. Samuel Frankland. alſo with the ingenuous and hopeful youths under his inſtitution. This you manifeſted in a very eminent manner, when the laſt year Mr. Major, with your ſelfe, the Aldermen, and many other ſubordinate Citizens, came in a venerable equipage to the Free-School, to grace their exerciſes with your preſence and audience: & though I cannot ſay with intelligence, of all or moſt, becauſe a good part of it was Greek, (a ſtrange Tongue even to the Roman Prieſts, and that byggGraecum eſt non poteſt legi. (Proverb) yet ſome did underſtand it; more the Latine: and the pleaſantneſſe of their voices, the gracefulneſſe of their elocution and action, the fidelity of their memories, preſented a gratefull experiment to ſuch as were skilled in neither of them, and exerciſed no faculty ſuperiour to ſence and fancy. hhIt is under conſultation I heare hereafter to give ſome reſpective entertainment to ſuch in their Native Language.But that which the wiſer ſort of Spectators and Auditors of all ranks (I conceive) chiefly intended, was, to profeſſe themſelves opponents to the late illiterate Sects, who cry down Schools and Univerſities, and would have our Miniſters no more learned then the Italian Friers of the order of S. Ignorance, who (as Luther writeth of them) were forced to ſolemn oathes that they would neither know, learn, or underſtand any thing at all, but ſhould anſwer all queſtions with neſcio Now if you had confined your beneficence to the Miniſters and other profeſſors of learning within your own City-walls; I ſhould have held my ſelf the leſſe obliged to this publick acknowledgement: but, Sir,iiLuther, Colloquia menſalia, or Divine diſcourſe at his Table. c. 40. p. 415. it is too extenſive in this kind to be either perſonally or locally limited. So that if the Arminians had not rendred the expreſſion ſuſpected of hereſie, I would call it Univerſall Grace, or Catholick charity. (to our whole reformed Tribe, and to all ingenuous Students their allies) if the Papiſts had not ſoiled that word with a ſavour of their Ubiquitary errour. I have this confidence by intelligence from ſuch as (upon experience) own you as a Patron of their juſt cauſes, in taking timely cognizance of them, and giving your efficacious countenance unto them: and to my ſelf, you have been pleaſed, (though yet I have had none opportunity to be any way ſerviceable to you) to anticipate my deſires, in the offer of your favour. For all which (in my brethrens name, and mine own) I profeſſe my ſelf,
IN the Epiſtle to Samuel Ebrall, Eſq; in the ſecond Page l. 6. r. Mr. O. Pag. 1. l. 7. dele two. r. Parentheſis. p. 2. l. 18. r. your. p. 3. l. 5. r. altercation. P. 4. in marg. r. arrogantia. p. 5. l. 5. r. 40. in marg. r. 26. r. Roſcius. l. 29. r. diſcovered. p. 6. r. l. 20. r. Trapp. l. 18. r. Butler. p. 7. l. 1. r. catholicks. p. 8. l. 19. r. may. p. 10. l. 11. r. Venice. p. 15. marg. r. quod. p. 16. l. 37. r. challenges. p. 19. l. 25. r. 1. of God. p. 21. l. 24. of man. p. 22. l. 11. r. Genoa. l. 29. r. all night. p. 26. l. 1. r. rightly in marg. r. deletum. p. 28. l. 2. r. diſſentire. l. 8. adde for. p. 29. in marg. r. Poſſed. p. 34. l. 6. r. to. l. 22. r. things. in marg. r. ab. p. 35. l. 26. r. Expoſitors. p. 37. l. 5. r. the. p. 38. l. 29. r. Papinus. p. 41. l. 12. r. Phflugius. p. 44. l. 5. adde day. p. 46. l. 33. add theſe. l. 34. adde Campian. l. 35. adde, the Conference. p. 47. l. 15. adde, it. p. 48 Chap. V. Contents of the Chap. adde with the cauſes of them. l. 22. r. was. p. 49. l. 1. r. two. p. 51. l. 20. r. 1574. p. 53. l. 31. adde, it. l. 36. adde, as. l. 38. adde forenoted. l. 39. r. ſome. adde, a doubt. d. 54. l. 8. dele is. p. 55. l. 15. dele in another Chapter. p. 58. l. 10. adde, as a fained. l. 34. add, to doubtful debate. p. 62. l. 17. dele for. l. 33. dele for Coſterus. p. 63. l. 7. r. and. l. 19. r. Coſterus. p. 69. l. 3. r. fifty. l. 16. adde In. p. 94. l. 1. r. hinges. l. 26. adde them. p. 95. l. 21. adde, a man to ſleep. p. 97. l. 8. r. helpleſs. p. 100. over againſt. l. 6. r. in marg. So in the Diſputation at Kenelnsworth publiſhed by Mr. O. P. 50. p. 124. l. 10. r. like.
YOu were an hearer (as I have heard) of the Diſputation at Killingworth betwixt Dr. John Brian, and John Onely, but (as he hath ſet it forth in print) it would be more ſuitable to ſay Dr. John Onely, and John Brian; ſo far hath the arrogancy of the man magnified himſelf, without due reſpect to the modeſty of a Chriſtian, the ingenuity of a Scholar, and the diſcretion of an ordinary rationall man; and ſo much hath he vilified the Doctor (in another book publiſhed by him ſince) whom all men (who know him, and are of any note for Learning and Religion,) highly honour for a very eminent degree of them both: and for his excellent faculty, and indefatigable diligence in Preaching and Catechiſing, there be very few who are comparable to him Nor do I know Mr. Onely his match among the Antipaedobaptiſts, (as he calleth his Aſsiſtants at the diſputation at Kill. ) for inſolence of Spirit, ſupercilious contempt of ſuch as are not taken with his Tenets. Some I am ſure there are who though they have too much affinity with ſome of his fancies and opinions, ſhew much manſuetude and civility to thoſe that ſteer their Miniſteriall and Chriſtian courſe by other principles; yea and they hold religious communion with them in publick ordinances not distinctive. But Mr. Onely, as he hath a name of ſingularity, ſo he is the fitter to be the ringleader of ſome notorious Schiſme; like Primianus a Donatist in the Collation at Carthage, to whom, if a denomination had been given him (out of a time of faction) according to his learning and manners, it muſt have been, not Primianus, but Ultimianus. This with my diſcourſe of Diſputations in matter of Religion, mine animadverſions on the printed Diſputation hold at Kill. and on Mr. D. his ſecond book, and my deſired advice to Dr. Brian, (concerning it) whether to anſwer him or no; I have preſented to publick view, with a particular addreſſe unto your ſelf; that of a true and intelligent witneſſe, you may become an equall and competent judge of the difference betwixt the Dr. and Mr. O. ſuper tota materia as now it is drawn out in his ſecond book: and I was glad of this occaſion to teſtifie how much contentment I take in the ſituation of my Reſidence, as in vicinity to yours, whereby I have the opportunity of enjoying your good neighbourhood, your friendly viſits, and many other affectionate offices; whereto there ſhall be no want of any anſwerable returnes which come within the capacity of the hearty prayers, and beſt obſervance of
YOur Conſolatory Letters I cannot ſufficiently bleſs God and You for, and therefore do again return my moſt humble and hearty thanks for your very great labour of love therein expreſſed, withal earneſtly craving leave to make them publick; the doing whereof, will (I am aſſured) redound much to the glory of God, erecting many ſouls dejected for the like loſs, and furtherance of your own glorious reward in the great day of account and refreſhing, which ſhall come from the preſence of the Lord.
Sir, there is another trouble fallen upon my ſpirit, wherewith I take the boldneſs to acquaint you; occaſioned by an Examination of ſome of my Arguments for the truth of our Parochial Churches by my Antagoniſt John Onley, which hath been abroad (as I hear) a long time, but lately came to my notice by a Miniſter 20. miles diſtant. I find the Book ſo full of bitterneſs and arrogancy, that I queſtion whether it be better to let the man alone, or to anſwer him according to his folly: I have ſent it to you, requeſting your peruſal thereof, and your advice what I ſhall doe (with all convenient ſpeed) which ſhall lay a further Obligation upon.
To which Letter of Dr. Brian, a ſhort and ſummary anſwer is returned in the next leaf; a full one in the whole diſcourſe following.
THough you would not uſe the liberty I gave you for correction of the long conſolatory diſcourſe I ſent you,aa〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Saph. Carm. p. 58. Edit. Henr. Steph; in 12. Cum Pindaro & aliis Lyricis Poetis Graecis. which (I am glad to perceive by your reſpective return) was as well taken by you, as intended by me: Yet have I made ſo bold with your ſhort gratulatory Letter, as to expunge the two Parentheſis of the two firſt lines, as comming too near the poeticall hyperbole, uſed in the praiſe of the Poems of Sappho, wherein though your errour of brotherly love might be excuſed, my errour of ſelf-love would not be pardoned, if I ſhould be ſo vain as to own your Encomium as due to any dictate of mine; all I can juſtly claim being no more then a witneſſe to my good will, and endeavour to do well. Waving then that part of the reaſons of your requeſt for publication of it in print, I am content upon the account of the reſt which you have rendred, to give it up to your diſpoſall, in hope of the good effects which (as you preſage) it may produce. And for the ſecond part of your Letter, wherein you make juſt complaint of Mr. John Onely his injurious dealing with you, and deſire mine advice, Whether it were better to let the man alone, or to anſwer a fool according to his folly; you ſhall have mine anſwer2 with my reaſons, but firſt I muſt tell you that I no ſooner put pen to paper for that purpoſe, but I found my ſelf by what I have read and obſerved of the diſputations of the precedent and preſent age, both minded of, and moved to an Enlargement of my labour, beyond the limits of your requeſt and expectation: So far as while I pay a debt of love to you, to make others indebted unto me (by your occaſion, and for your ſake) by delivering ſomewhat of importance, and (I hope) alſo capable of their acceptance, which haply would not have come to their notice by another hand; and this the rather, becauſe I do not think Mr. O. worthy of ſo much of my notice and reſpect, as of purpoſe to appeare in publick againſt him, or any man of his temper and condition: It will be enough for him to be brought in as an occaſion or an appendix to that which is of more moment. I ſhall then thus divide my diſcourſe; treating
1. Of Diſputations in generall concerning matters of Religion.
2. Of our Diſputation with Mr. J. O. in particular, as by him it is publiſhed, and his examination of ſome of your Arguments, ſet forth in print, to ſet forth himſelf as a Triumphant Antagoniſt (for his Sect,) not onely over you, but over all the reformed Churches throughout the world. Of whom when I come to that part, I ſhall give you my ſenſe and apprehenſion as he deſerveth; and mine advice touching an anſwer to him as you deſire, and I conceive to be moſt convenient.
Firſt for the Generall, I ſhall reduce it to, and comprehend the whole in the firſt ſix enſuing Chapters, as their contents are ſet down in the foregoing Table.
SOme are not altogether againſt diſputations in Religion, but are jealous over them with a godly jealouſy, as Paul was over his Corinthians, 2 Cor. 11.2. leſt they ſhould be inconſiderately undertaken, or indiſcreetly managed, and ſo asbbIſti dum nimium ſcalpunt veritatem amittunt (ut acutusille mimi verſiculus;) nimium altercando veritas amittitur. Ludovic. Vives de cauſis corruptar. artiū. l. 3. p 127. Ludovicus Vives ſaith; The truth by too much ſcratching and alteration ſhould be loſt; leſt errour by artificiall arguments and ornaments ſhould have ſuch a glorious flouriſh and varniſh ſet upon it, as to make it to be taken for the truth: which is not unlike to fall out; for ſomeccInterdum orichalcum magis exprimit colorem auri quā aurum ipſum. Ibid. Copper (ſaith he,) hath a more glorious Luſtre then ſome true gold. And nothing, asddNihil eſt tam incredibile quod non dicendo fiat probabile; nihil tam horridum, tam incultum, quod non splendeſcat oration•. Cicer. paradox, Prooem. p. 436. Num. 3. Cicero obſerveth in the prooeme of his Paradoxes, is ſo incredible, but by elequence it may be made to appeare probable. Nothing is ſo horrid, but by a garniſh of words it may be made to ſhine. This impoſture is eaſily put upon the vulgar; foreNihil tam facile quàm vilem plebeculam linguae volubilitate decipere, quae quicquid non intelligit plus admiratur. Hierom. ad Nepor. de vita Cler. Tom. 1. p. 14. it is very eaſy with volubility of tongue to deoeive the ſimple common people, who What they do not perceive with understanding, they receive with admiration; nor can theyfGarrulitatem authoritatem putant. Idem. Epiſt. Ocean. vol. 2. p. 324. put a due difference betwixt garrulity and authority: And they are commonly more affected with what they ſay who gainſay ſolid and long believed verity under pretence of new diſcoveries of truth; and errour then with what hath warrant from the word of God, and conſent of all the Chriſtian Churches of the world, both of ancient or of later times: and the fallacy takes with them the more tenderly, becauſe theſe4 Novell Dogmatiſts make a faire profeſſion of mortification and ſelf-deniall, refuſing thoſe advantages and accommodations of a comfortable living, which their oppoſites do enjoy; and bear themſelves boldly againſt authority, as if they meant to merit that Elogium which the Diſciples of the Pha•iſees with the Herodians gave of our Saviour, Mat. 22.16. Maſter we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God truth; neither careſt thou for any man, for thou regardeſt not the perſonſ of man. And therefore they ſet up what Religion they plea•e, making their conventicles when and what they pleaſe, and in them ſpeaking of God and man what they pleaſe, that which is fitter to be whiſpered in the dark or rather buried in eternall ſilence, then as Divine dictates, as our Saviour would have them, publiſhed on the houſe-top, Luk. 12.3. yet that their more private carriage of their profeſſion in Chimnie-houſes, where there is ever more ſmoke then light, may not be interpreted to their prejudice, as if they had not conſcience and confidence to own their tenets in publick; they have preſumed many times, even the weaker ſex hath ſo much ſtrength of fancy and will, as to offer to ſet up their new lights in our ſteeplehouſes, and to call our Preachers down from their Pulpits, as having no calling from God to be Preachers of the Goſpel: and herein many of the ſhallower fort do ſo applaud themſelves, that they had rather appeal to them to be their judges,ggFactus eſt populus ſpectator, arbiter, Index. Ludovic. Vives. de cauſis corrupt. artium. l. 1. p. 38. as ſome judicious writers have obſerved, then to any others; &hhInde arrogantia, quod aliquod ſibi viderentur quia ſtulto judici videbantur. Idem l. 3. p. 327. they arrogantly applaud themſelves in their approbation. But that which maketh the wiſer ſort more unwilling to give too much way to religious diſputations, or rather to diſputations of Religion (eſpecially in publick) is the ſubtilty of ſome of unſound principles & the ſimplicity of others of a better belief; who ſuſpecting no deceipt, & confiding in the ſtrength of truth, are eaſily intangled with ingagements to diſpute to the greateſt diſadvantage of their cauſe, not forethinking how their adverſaries may be furniſhed for aſſault; and what liberty of miſreport they will take, either to make ſhew of victory, or to ſhadow a foil; this inconvenience is obvious to an ordinary apprehenſion: But there are ſome ſtratagematicall depths, and policies of thoſe who are Maſters in the Myſteries of iniquity, both of the old5 and new Antichriſtian faction, which I confeſſe my ſhallowneſſe had not imagined, had I not been informed of them by a double teſtimony of good account and credit; the one was told me by a Learned Scotchman, a great Traveller, when we met and became well acquainted in Oxford, which though above 4 yeares ago I very well remember it was thus. The Proteſtants of Luthers and Calvins profeſſion have had many diſputes and conferences in ſeverall places, whichiiThe Proteſtants have had above 100 meetings, conferences, diſputations, councels and Synods, from their firſt diſputation held at Lypſia upon the year 1519 to their ſynod in Vilna, 590. So Parſons Preface to the 10. diſputations recounted by John Fox, v. 26. he takes his ingelligence from. Staniſlaus Reſcaus his obſervations, and meanes, though he do not particularly quote his Book, wch he calleth Miniſtromachiam, in qua Evangelicorum Magiſtrorum & Miniſtro•••de evangelicis magiſtris & miniſtris mutua judicia Teſtimonia &c. recenſentur. E••uſ. Coleniae. apud Henric. Falken. birg. 1522. Parſons numbers to above a 100. betwixt them; at one of their meetings, which brought them near a concluſion of accord, there came in a man in the name of a Lutheran Miniſter, which deſired to be heard, and he was admitted to ſpeak; and he ſo ſet up ſoothed and animated the Lutherans, to ſtand out againſt all complyance with the Calviniſts, and ſo exaſperated the Calviniſts with reproch, that they went away worſe minded towards each other, then they were when at firſt they met together. The other cunning device was, of ſome of our Engliſh Sectaries about the yeare 1647. And that was a plot upon a diſpute managed in this manner; ſome of them had provoked a Miniſter (learned enough for his time, but too young to match them in ſubtilty either of caution or of contrivance) to a publick diſpute, which he accepted of: and though he acted his part as well as could be expected of one of his parts and yeares, yet he rather loſt then gained reputation to his cauſe or perſon, becauſe one of their ſide pretending himſelf till then to be of a contrary judgement to theirs, at the cloſe of the diſpute, openly profeſſed his conviction and converſion to their party by the ſatisfaction he had received at that diſputation; whereas it was afterward dicovered that he was a great Zelot to that cauſe and party in former times, which (together with the other particulars fore mentioned) induced me to propoſe unto my Brethren of the Miniſtry of Cheſhire, when they met to ſubſcribe their atteſtation to the Miniſters of London, Jun. 1648. (the penning whereof by their unanimous vote they put upon me) that no Miniſter might make or take up a challenge for a ſet disputation upon any point of Religion, without conſultation and conſent of his Brethren, who ſhould judge
1. Whether it ſhould be disputed on or no; if ſo
62. How the disputation ſhould be ordered, that the truth, and thoſe who are advocates for it, may be clear and ſecured from circumvention and ſlander. The like (upon an eſpeciall occaſion) I moved to my fellow. Miniſters at our meeting at Killingworth in Warwickſhire, and in both (viz. that in Cheſhire, and this in Warwickſhire,) as many as met together (who were a conſiderable number) ſignified their conſent, by ſubſcription to what I propoſed, in theſe words:
At the meeting of the Miniſters at Kenelmworth reſolved and agreed upon; That no Miniſter of this Aſſociation, either offer or undertake any publick Diſputation concerning any point of Religion, but in ſuch a manner, and order, and time, as ſhall be concluded of by the conſent of the brethren of the Society.
Beſides theſe religious conſiderations which moſt concern Miniſters to look unto, there is another, which upon a Civil account belongs moſt to the Magiſtrate, viz. the preſervation of the publick peace, much endangered by a numerous concourſe of people of adverſe principles, for debate of their differences. From which will hardly be ſeparated that peſt of concord, asrrConcordiae peſtis vincendi pertinax libido. Eraſm. Epiſt. praefix. operibus. Hilar. p. 5. (Eraſmus calleth it,) a pertinacious deſire to conquer the adverſary; which may be like to break out into opprobrious words, and from ſuch words it may be to blowes and bloud-ſhed. Therefore S. Paul clearing of himſelf from Tertullus his accuſation, of moving ſedition among all the Iewes throughout the world, Act•q 5. he ſaith v. 12. that his accuſers neither found him in the Temple diſputing with any man, nor raiſing up the people, neither in the Synagogues, nor in the City; implying that diſputation did diſpoſe men to popular7 diſturbance; and with reference to the affinity betwixt the one and the other, the Catholick meeting in a leſſe number then the Donatiſts, (for a publick diſpute) made this advantage of the difference, viz. That if any tumults ſhould ariſe the diſorder could not in reaſon be imputed unto them who were fewer, but to their adverſaries that in number exceeded them. Pauciores catholici q••m Donatiſl•e•e ſi tumultus eſſet minori numero non impataretur Auguſt. Operts breviculi collat. Praefat. Tom. 7. part. 1. p. 686. Though ſometimes there is more danger of commotion from a few turbulent Spirits on the one ſide, then of a multitude of ſober minded Citizens on the other; whereof you had evidence enough at your City Coventry, when thoſe who came as abetters to Mr. Knowles and Mr. K•ff•ns contestation, againſt you and your brother Dr. Grewe, behaved themſelves ſo rudely, that the Committee reſiding there thought it neceſſary to forbid your diſpu•tes, and the City-Magiſtrates denyed the uſe of their Town-Hall for that purpoſe, though they had promiſed it before their coming, when there appeared no ſuch perill of breach of the publick Peace, as after their coming they ſoon perceived. How it came to paſſe, that (notwithſtanding the declared unwillingneſſe of the Committee and Magiſtrates of the City againſt the publick diſpute,) you fitted them with a publick place and polemical entertainment, who came ſo far out of their way, as from London to Coventry to quarrell with you, I ſhall ſhew in a more convenient place: And (to go on with obſervations of like ſort) I very well remember that in London (when Sir, Iohn Gayor was Lord Major) there was a diſputation betwixt Mr. William Ienkins then Preacher at Christ-Church, and Mr. Benjamin Cox, in Mr. I. his houſe, at which I was preſent, being invited by Mr. I. And at the end of that diſpute, there was another reſolved on betwixt Mr. Iames Cranford, and the ſame Mr. Cox, and that within a few dayes after; but before the time concluded on I had occaſion to bring his Lordſhip a lift of ſuch Miniſters as I thought fit to be Preachers at Pauls, as he had requeſted me to do; and then I telling him (the diſcourſe we had inducing me to it) the diſpute between Mr. I. and Mr. Cox, and that I was preſent at it, and that another was intended and concluded betwixt Mr. Cranford and Mr. Cox within a while after; he replyed, that he would have ſuffered neither of them, if he had had timely advertiſement8 of them both; but ſince the one was paſt and could not be recalled, he would ſend his warrant to prevent the other; and that it might be certainly and ſpeedily done, he put me upon it to draw up a form of prohibition of it: which I did, whereupon the parties ſerved with it deſiſted from their purpoſe. There was another diſputation more publickly beſpoken, and as I have heard agreed upon to be betwixt your two, Cov. Antagoniſts, and Mr. Calumy, at his Church in Alderman-bury; but ſuch animoſities of Spirit, and ſymptomes of tumult began to ſtir, and to gather near the time and place of the publick meeting, that there was great cauſe to fear, that how ever it fared with the truth, the common peace would be much endangered, if that concourſe were not hindred; and therefore by the civil Magiſtrates it was forbidden, and as in duty it was requiſite, accordingly forborn.
And I doubt not of Religious Civil Magiſtrates, though their proper office ſerve principally for the preſervation of peace among the common people, but ſome of them have the leſſe liking of diſputes in Religion, becauſe they fear it muſt be prophaned by polemicall conteſtations of ſuch as arellHoc morbi fere innatum eſt hominum ingeiis, ut cedere neſciant. Eraſm. ubi ſuprà too stout to ſtoop to the truth, and ſommEſt hoc pertinaciae pleriſque mortalium ingeniis inſitumut, quod ſemel quocunquecaſu pronunciaverint, nunquam•u••…deſinant, etiamſi compererint perperä pronunciaſſe. Ibid. p. ult. pertinacious in their opinions, as not to recede from what they have pronounced, nay though they ſee their errour, and that they have pronounced amiſſe: and this Eraſmus obſerveth as a diſeaſe and infirmity naturally incident to moſt men. And as the Magiſtrates are publick perſons, if withall they be religious, they cannot think it fit the common intereſt in ſacred and Catholick truths of doctrine and practiſe, ſhould be permitted to private perſons to toſſe to and fro, (as a Ball betwixt two Rackets) in wrangling altercation. This moved the Emperour Marcianus, in ratification of the Conncel of Chalcedon,nnNe cui amplius liceret publicè de fide differere. Baron. Annal an. 452. num. 1. Tom. p. 187. to decree that none ſhould publickly diſpute of matters of Faith;ooClericus fuerit qui, &c. conſortio clericorum mov•a•ur; fi militia praectnctus ſit, cingulo spoliabitur; caeteri ſanct iſſima urbe pellantur. Baron. Ibid. num. 4. col. 688. and he laid a penalty on ſuch as preſumed to act contrary to what he had decreed: as for Clerks, to be put out of the number of the Clergy; for a Souldier, that his helt and ſword ſhall be taken from him; for Citizens, to be expelled the City; and for others, their contumacy was to beppCompetentibus ſuppliciis ſubjugandi. Ibid. ſubdurd with other competent puriſhments.
9There are two great oppoſites to each other, too oppoſite to all diſputations of Religion, the Turke and the Pope; who though their Pride make them ambitious of the higheſt place, the head, their wickedneſſe makes them worthy of the loweſt, the taile, Deut. 28.44.
1. Firſt for the Turk, Mahomet, (that famous impoſtor and falſe Prophet, the founder of that impious and impure Sect of the Mahametans) not onely forbids all diſputes about the Religion of his Bible, (rather Babell) the Alcoran, but inſtructs his deluded diſciples how to anſwer them who are diſpoſed to diſpute:qqTecum diſputare volentibus dic, Deum ſo••…omnes tuo; actus agnoſcere, qui die poſtremo lites omnes & contrarietates diſcutiet. Alcaroni. c. 32. Say unto them, (ſaith he) God alone knowes all thy acts, and at the laſt day will diſcuſſe all controverſies and contrarieties. Again,rHomines incredulos taliter alloquere; ego quidem legem veſtram minime ſequor, nec vos meam; igitur mihi mea maneat, vobiſqueveſtra. Ibid. c. 109. to incredulous men ſay thus, I follow not your Law nor you mine; therefore let me alone with that which is mine, and I will let you alone with yours.
2. For theſſNobis nullum fas eſt inire certamen cum hominibus communionis alienae; divina ſcriptura praedicante homine haereticum poſt primam & ſecundam correptionem de vita. Tom. 3. Concil. p. 625. Col. 2. edit. Bin. 1636. Pope Gelaſius decreed againſt diſputation with thoſe who are of another Communion; for which he pretends the authority of the Apoſtle Paul, A man that is an Heretick after the firſt and ſecond admonition reject. Titus 3. v. 10. tQuaeritur anliceat clericis de fide Catholica diſputare publicè. Neg. Azor. Inſtir. Moral. l 8. c. 26. 1 part. p. 569. Azorius the Jeſuit in his morall inſtitutions putteth this queſtion, whether it be lawfull for Clerks to dispute publickly of the Catholick Faith? And he anſwereth negatively, and quotes for it A decree of the Trinity and Catholick Faith: and for lay perſons the Popes prohibition is expreſſe and peremptory,uInhibemus ne cuiquam Laitae perſonae liceat de fide Catholica dispatare. Sext. decretal. l. 5. Tit. 2. de Haereticis. we inhibit (as unlawfull for) any lay-man publickly to diſpute of the Catholick Faith. And if there bewAzorius Ibid. p. 571. Col. 1. any diſputes of matters of Faith, betwixt Catholicks and Hereticks publiſhed in any Mother-Tongue, they are forbidden in their Index of prohibited books.
Qu. But did not Bellarmine read his controverſies or diſputations of the difference between the Popiſh and Proteſtant Religion, at Rome? and (amongſt other queſtions) did he not10 diſcuſſe the capitall queſtions, of the Popes ſupremacy and in-infallibility, as well as others of inferiour titles?
Anſ. He did ſo, and becauſe he ſtood up as a Champion, for the Antichriſtian Creed and Church, he was allowed to do ſo, eſpecially there where his hearers were wilfully fortified againſt the true faith: But ſo little is any diſputation liked by thoſe who are moſt Popiſh, that as a very wife and obſervant Traveller informeth us, (in his judicious Book called Europae speculum, or a view or ſurvey of the ſtate of Religion in the Weſtern parts of the world;) that hexxSir Edw. Sand. Europae. ſpeculum, p. 121, 122. ſought for the controverſies of Card. Bellarm. in verity in all places; but neither that, nor Gregorie de Valentia, nor other Popiſh School-men, nor any of that quality could be ever in any ſhop of Italy ſet eye upon: which made me (ſaith he) entertain this ſuſpicious conjecture, that no part of the Proteſtants poſitions and allegations ſhould be known; they were ſo exact as to make diſcurrent (in ſome ſort) even thoſe very books which were constrained to cite them, that they might refute them; in ſuch wiſe as not to ſuffer them to be commonly ſaleable, but onely to ſuch, and in ſuch places as the Superiours ſhould think meet. And it is not an improbable opinion of ſome, that Bellarmines diſpatations are the leſſe pleaſing to the Pope and his deareſt favourites, becauſe he citeth our Authors too fully, and ſetteth on their arguments further then his anſwers reach to take them off. And for the point in hand, diſputation is the moſt cryed down in Italy, the Popes Country, above other places: for as the ſame prudent Author obſervethyyIbid. p. 117. as in the foundation of the reformation (which is the Scripture) ſo much more in the edifice it ſelf, the Doctrines and Opinions of the reformed Churches, they bear away all ſound and Eccho of them, being not lawfull there to alledge them, no not to glance at them, not to argue nor diſpute of them, no not to refute them: he goeth on; In ordinary communication (ſaith he) to talk of matters of religion is odious and ſuſpicious; but to enter into any reaſoning, (though but for argument ſake, without any other ſcandall) is prohibited and dangerous: yea it was once my fortune (ſaith he) to be half threatned for none other fault then for debating with a Jew, and upholding the truth of Chriſtianity against him; ſo unlawfull there are all diſputes of Religion whatſoever, &c. Ibid.I believe him there in the rather, becauſe11zzAzor. Inſtitut. part. 1. l. 8. c. 26. p 571. col. 2. Azorius confeſſeth, they are ſo jealous of all diſputations, as that they will not allow of a confutation of the Alcora n in any Mother-Tongue: Not that they care either for the Jewiſh or Turkiſh Religion, but that if they muſt be ſo much ſecured from common contradiction, much more muſt that which they call Roman Catholick, eſpecially for thoſe points which concern his Holineſſe indiſputable and all diſputative priviledges, to whom Papall Paraſites appropriate that of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 2.14. The spirituall man judgeth all things, yet he himſelf is judged of no man: But, the cauſe common to them both (why the Turkiſh and Popiſh Religion are ſo tender over their Tet•ets, that they may not be touched by diſpute) is, for that they are like the apples of Sodom, which how fair ſoever they ſeem to the eye, if they be handled they fall unto aſhes and ſmoke,aaJoſeph. of the wars of the Jewes, l. 5. c. 5. fine capitis. as Joſephus recordeth, becauſe they have no ſolidity of truth that can endure the triall.
Having ſhewed in the precedent diſcourſe how averſe many have been from diſputations in Religion; why and how far and how adverſe the Mahometans and Papiſts are unto them; I will adde but one obſervation more under this Title of Diſputations in Religion concerning the Pope and his party of this generation, who (beſides the reaſon wherein by their diſlike of them, they agree with the Turks (which is a part of their Turco papiſmus, as Dr. Sutlive hath entitled a book againſt them) are vehemently bent againſt them (where their power is moſt predominant) out of pride and diſdain of all Religions but their own, eſpecially of the Proteſtants, becauſe they have done them the moſt diſhonour and damage; and becauſe by the domineering decrees of the Councell of Trent, and by the Tyrannicall authority of the Inquiſition, they are better able to oppoſe them, then by Diſputations and Arguments from Scripture or reaſons; and for this reaſon among others is the Popiſh““Pope Paul the fourth ſaid it was the principall ſecret and Myſtery of the papacy. Hiſt. of the Council of Trent lib. 4. p. 405. and the true Ram to bear down hereſie and defend the Apoſtolick Sea. Ibid. p. 409. rather then“The very name of the Inquiſition is terrible all Chriſtendome over, and the King of Spain with his Grandees tremble at it. Howels famil. Letters. Vol. 1. Let. 44 p. 236. Spaniſh inquiſition, though ſet up principally againſt the Iewes and Moores, carryed on ſo cunningly and cruelly againſt the Proteſtants, that the Biſhops and other12 of the Popiſh Clergy might not be put to too much paines in arguing with them; as it was ſaid by ſome who wrote againſt the Engliſh Biſhops, for preſſing ceremoniall conformity with too much rigour;bbSo in the beginning of a Dialogue betwixt Diotrephes a Biſhop, Tertullus a Papiſt, Pandocheus an In-keeper, and Paul a Preacher of the word of God. that the clink and the Gate-houſe (two common Gaoles) were the ſtrongeſt Arguments they had to maintain their cauſe; but they were as houſes with paper walls in compariſon of the Priſons of the Pope-holy inquiſition, as, thecSee the Spaniſh Hiſtory l. 28. p. 1031, and à p. 1119. à. 1123. and 1134, 1135. Spaniſh Hiſtory, beſides other writers, have reported it.
IN the precedent chapter we have ſhewed how averſe from, or adverſe to diſputations in matters of Religion, ſome have been, how far, and for what reaſons: There are others (of another mind) ſo diverſe from them, or contrary to them, that their difference maketh a juſter ground of diſpute then diverſe others which are drawn out into many and long debates. There have been and are ſome men (to pretermit with contempt that daring Bedlamite““Theaura John taking upon him to be high Prieſt of the Jewes, ſet up a challenge to both the Univerſities of Oxford & Cambr. and proclaimed it with a three-fold O yes to anſwer his printed Dotages in Pauls-Church. April. 5. 1652. Theaura Iohn) who having an high opinion of their own good parts for knowledge and utterance, think their eminence cannot be ſufficiently known, nor they enough admired and honoured without publick oftenſion, I might ſay oſtentation, of it in a polemicall concertation. This was the humour13 ofddLeontinus Gorgius primus auſus eſt in conventu poſcere quaeſtionem, id eſt, jubere dacere quadere quis velit audere; audax negotium dicerem & impudent, niſi, &c. Cicer. de finibus bonor. & malor. l. 2. princip. libri. Gorgius Leontinus, of whom the Roman orator noteth, that he was the firſt that took upon him to demand a queſtion, that is, to aske the people what queſtion they deſired to be diſputed, and they ſhould preſently heare him diſpute and diſcourſe of it. A bold buſineſſe, ſaith the orator, I would ſay an impudent too, but our later Philoſophers have taken example by him for the like undertaking. And if not by imitation of heathen Philoſophers, yet by naturall corruption have divers Chriſtian profeſſors been puffed up to the like degree of vain glory; being proud of thoſe preeminences for which by the Apoſtles admonition and caution they ſhould have been rather humble and thankfull: for he would have none to be puffed up againſt another for any abilities they have and others have not, 1. Cor. 4.6. and he pathetically expoſtulateth with ſuch as think too well of themſelves, and diſdain others: who maketh thee to differ from another (ſaith he,) and what haſt thou that thou didſt not receive? now if thou didſt receive it, why boaſtest thou as if thou hadſt not received it? v. 7. that is, as if it were thine own of thy ſelf, without being beholding to another, eſpecially to God, who might have made him whom thou contemneſt glorious, and thee contemptible. It is probable that Iohn Picus Earle of Marandula (ſo much admired for wit and learning, as that he is ſtiled,eeTheologorum & philoſopho••…ſine controverſia principis ſic in titularipag. operum cudit. Baſil. quam Sebaſt cam. Henric Petriann. 1519. without controverſie, the Prince of Divines and Philoſophers) might be lifted up with appreheaſion of his own excellent endowments, and the applauſe of men when he put forth a kind of challenge to the Chriſtian world, to disputeffNengentas de divinis & naturalibus quaeſtiones propoſui, ad quas in publico doctiſſimorum hominum conſeſſu eſſem responſurus. John Pici Mirand. Apol. Tom. 1. operum p. 76. upon 900. The ologicall and Philoſophicall queſtions at Rome, and in any of them to be ready to be reſpondent to any opponent: wherein though ſome commended his ſtudiouſneſſe of good arts, yet did his offer givegObtrectatorum turba multiplex aſſurrexit. Nonnulli me audacem dicere & temerarium, qui hac aetate, quartum ſcilicet & vigeſimum nondum natus annum, de altiſſimis Philoſophiae locis, de emnibus Chriſtianae Theologiae myſteriis, &c. Ibid. p. 1677. great offence unto many that accounted him an audacious and temerarious young man, who (not yet fully of age of 24 yeares) durſt propoſe a diſputation, of the profound points of Philoſophy, of the ſublime myſteries of Chriſtian Theology, of unknown arts and diſciplines in ſo famous a City, and ſo ample and numerous an aſſembly of learned men. And much more oppoſition14 and reproch he met withall: for his (at leaſt) ſuppoſed preſumption,hhCum nuper Romam veniſſem, pedes ſūmi pontificis Innocentii ectavi, cui ab innocentia vitae nomen, meritiſſimè de more oſculaturus. Ibid. princip. Alpo. p. 76. which gave them juſt occaſion to ſuſpect, (though he were ſo ſuperſtitionſly humble as to come to Rome to kiſſe the Popes foot) and ſeemingly ſo religiouſly lowly as to ſhew himſelf ſeriouſly affected with the fore-cited ſaying of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 4.7.iiQuid habemus quod noſtrum ſit? nonne cuncta quae in nobis ſunt Dei ſunt? quid ergo oporter ſe extollere magni facere oſtentare? glorietur qui gloriatur in Domino &c. John Pic. Mirand. Tom. 2. de ſtudio divinae & humanae Philoſoph. l. 2. c. 6. p. 25. what have we (ſaith he) that is ours? are not all things that are in us the things of God? why then ſhould any one extoll, magnifie, or boast himſelf of any thing he hath? but let him that glorieth, glory in the Lord, ſince all good things are his and by his infinite grace and goodneſſe beſtowed upon us. Whether he thought ſeriouſly of this, when he made his challenge forementioned, we cannot determine, nor will we conjecture: But there are ſome, of whoſe forwardneſſe to diſpute we can have no good conceit, as of Felix the Manichean Heretick, who provoked Auguſtine (the renowned Biſhop of Hippo) to publick diſpute; whereto he was ſo unprepared, that it was a doubt to him that publiſhed the report of what paſſed betwixt them,kNeſcio quid potiſſimum admirer, Feliciſne impudentiam qui provocavit ad publicam diſputationem, ad quam adeo non fuit inſtructus ut vix aſinus potuit inſulſius argumentari; an populi tolerantiam; an Auguſtini ſtomachum invincibilem; qui tam•indoctis ineptiis tam diu tanta lenitate reſponderit: ſic in Praefat. ad lect or de art. cum Felici Manichae. poſt finem lib. 2. Tom. 6. p. 651. operum Auguſtin. whether were more to be admired, the impudence of Felix braying, rather then disputing; or the patience of the people, hearing his abſurd arguings without tumult; or the invincible ſtomach of Auguſtine, who with ſuch lenity continued ſo long to anſwer his unlearned follies. Of this over-eager affection to diſſenting altercation, we find many examples among the Romaniſts, as Iohn Eccius (whomlJohannes Eckius vel Eccius catholicae ſidei adverſus Lutherum ac reliquos haereticos propugnatur inſignis Antipoſſevinus Appa. Sacri. Tom. 1. p. 871. Poſſevine commends for a notable Champion againſt Luther and other Hereticks, who when a diſputation was appointed at Ratiſhon, ann. 1541. betwixt Iulius Pilugius, Iohannes Gropperus, and himſelf for the popiſh party, and Philip Melancthon, Martin Bucer, and Iohn Piſtorius, for the Proteſtants,mIlli verecundèſe excuſant, & ut alii magis idonei conſtituantur petunt omnes praeter Eccium, is enim paratü ſe diccbat & inſtructū. Sleidan. Cōment. l. 13. p. 279. all but Eccius, modeſtly deſired to be excuſed, and intreated that others more fit might be appointed to diſcuſſe the points in difference betwixt them;15 but he ſaid he was ready prepared for the purpoſe, yet it was to little purpoſe; for though he were ſo hot upon the matter, God took him off with another heart fornnAliquanto poſt in febrim incidit, it a quidem ut intereſſe non poſſet. Sleid. Ibid. 14. princip. lib. p. 281. he ſeized on him with a feaver, and thereby ſerved him with a prohibition, that he could not be preſent; of him it is to be noted that though he were ſo forward to diſpute, he wrote one diſcourſe againſt diſputing with Hereticks, andooSee Poſſevinus ubi ſuprà. another that Hereticks were to be burned: which ſheweth that he would not have their minds enligthned with inſtruction, but their bodies inflamed to deſtruction by burning faggots reared round about them. Iohn Cochlens his mate in malignity to Proteſtant truths, was ſo vehemently and confidently bent, (by diſputation) to oppoſe ſuch as profeſſed themſelves Proteſtants, that he offered himſelf to diſpute with any Lutheran, upon perill to loſe his life if he failed in his proofs; but his confidence is the leſſe, to be regarded, becauſe as he perſecuted truth;ppEccius commentar. rerum inde geſtarum ann. 1531. p. 271. under the name of Hereſie ſo he publiſhed Hereſy under the title of truth for he was the firſt that ſet forth the workes of Iohannes MaxentinsqqCochleus opera Johannis Maxentii ſub. nomine orthodoxi patris primus edidit. Tom. 4. Biblioth Patr. p. 433. as an orthodox father whom ſome of his own ſide, (more learned then himſelf, as Margarinus Dola Bigne) have ſince dicovered to be anrrOpera Maxentii cautiſſimè legenda, nec illis fidendum, cùm lateat Eutychianae haereſeos venenum. Ib. &c. p. 445. Entychian Heretick, as the reader may ſee in the fourth tome of Bibliotheca Patrum: the Eutychian hereſie acknowledged but one nature in Chriſt, and that was the divine, andsAlphonſus de caſtro adverſus haereſes lib. 4. titulo de Chriſti haereſ. 4 col. 4278. held that our bodies at the reſurrection ſhall be more ſubtill then the wind, ſo that they ſhall neither be ſeen nor felt. After Eccius and Cochleus was ſet up the ſect of the Ieſuits, which ſome place upon the yeartIbid. l. 13. titulo de reſurrectione, haereſ. 2. col. 906. 1530. ſome inuBuccalzer. Jud. Chronol. p. 534. 1540. Among them none ever ſet a bolder face upon ſo bad a cauſe as thewLudov. Lucius Hiſt. Jeſuit, c. 1. p. 1. Ieſuit Edmund Campian did; who made a thraſonicall challenge to diſpute with the Ʋniverſities of England, reducing the reaſons of his diſpute to ten heads, which Poſſevine (a fiery-ſpirited Ieſuit, for the good liking he hath of them, and fearing (in time) ſo ſmall a book as they made might be loſt, incorporated into his“See Poſſevinus Bibliotheca ſelect. part. p. 309. ad 324. firſt part of his Bibliotheca Selecta. In theſe reaſons of his offer, he16 ſeemes cum ratione inſanire, to be mad with ſuch a miſtake atheirs who think they have reaſon, when they kill Chriſts ſervants, to think they do him ſervice, John 16.2.
His confident expreſſions in his cauſe, argue either a ſtrange impoſture of a deluding ſpirit, or a braſen impudence of a bragging Jeſuit,xxSi hoc praeſtitero, coelos eſſe. Sanctoseſſe, fidem eſſe, Chriſtum eſſe, cauſam obtinui. Camp. in Epiſt. Academicis Oxonii florentibus. Ib. 320. If I do make good (ſaith he) that there is an Heaven, that there be Saints, that there is faith, that there is a Ghriſt; I have won the victory. yyPatres ſi quando licebit accedere, confectum eſt praelium; tam ſunt noſtri quàm Gregorius ipſe 13. filiorum Eccleſiae pater amantiſſimus•Ibid. ratione 5. p. 315.If we come to try our differences by the fathers, the war is at an end; they are as certainly ours as Pope Gregorie the thirteenth, a moſt loving Father of the Children of the Church: But when he was diſputed within the Tower, ann. 1581. he that was ſo loud and vigorous in his challenge, was ſo low and feeble in performance, that it gave them cauſe to conceive who had well obſerved them both,zzSee Alex. Nowell and Will: Dayes Preface before the diſpute printed ann. 1583. that the book was none of his which was publiſhed in his name; howſoever he that reads his challenge, and the true relations of the diſpute or conference fore-mentioned, will find that his rhetorick was more plauſible in the one, then his logick powerfull in the other; ſo that we can neither ſay (according to Sampſons riddle) out of the ſtrong came ſweetneſſe, Judges 14.14. Nor out of the ſweetneſſe came ſtrength. For it was his weakneſſe of judgement to take ſo great a burden on him as he was nor able to bear, and the weakneſſe of his cauſe and judgment both, which ſuffered it to ſink when he took it into protection, and undertook to ſupport it againſt ſo many vigorous Aſſailants as he provoked to oppoſe it; when one learned man was able to turn that counterfeit Divine into a meer Thraſo, his reaſons into bubbles, his threats into trifles and vapours of vaniſhing ſmoke;““Campianum ita fregit Whitakerus, ut omnes ſanae mentis facile viderent ementitum Theologum in verum Thraſonem, rationes in ampullas, deniqueomnes minas in meras nugas & fumum leviſſimum evanuiſſe. Melch. Adamus in vita Whitakeri part. poſter. p. 169. as Melchior Adamus very fitly ſetteth forth his folly and foile.
There have been ſome women who have ſo much forgotten the frailty and modeſty of their ſex, as to make chattings to learned men for diſputation in matters of Religion; of this there is a memorable ſtory, but how true it is I cannot tell, becauſe17 cauſe I have it but upon the report ofaaParſons in the Preface to his report of 10. diſp. p. 29, 30. added to the third part of his treatiſe intituled the 3 converſions of England. a Ieſuit, (who howſoever moſt highly honoured by his ſect, is for his manybbSee the glorious Elogium of Robert Parſons in Capitall Letters in. Philip. Alagamb. Bibliotheca. Societat. Jeſu p. 414. falſities, and ſome forgeries, of little credit among the Proteſtants,) which is this: In the year of Chriſt 403. Acertain wilfull woman, of the City of Antioch, named Julia, infected with the abominable hereſie of the Manichees, and fervent therein, came to the City of Gaza, whereof Saint Porphyrius, an holy learned man, was Biſhop; and beginning there to pervert Chriſtians, and being reprehended for it by the Biſhop, ſhe challenged him to an open diſputation, which the good man admitted, ſhe behaved her ſelf ſo inſolently as was intolerable: what the iſſue and effect was, is to be obſerved under another title. Another example I had occaſion to note in a letter to a worthy Lady, of a woman for her learning above moſt of her ſort, or ſex, her name was Argala, a Proteſtant, of whomccGretzer. Tom. 1. defenſ. Bellarm. lib. 2. c. 51. Col. 833, 834. Gretzer the Jeſuit reports that ſhe ſent a challenge to Eckius, (of whom we have ſpoken before) to diſpute with him, who not ſo patient as the Biſhop forementioned, ſent her a diſtaſſe and spindle, to put her upon employment more proper to her Sex. It had been more to her commendation, if ſhe had been as learned as the noble Virgin Anna Maria a Schur-man, to have been as modeſt and ſilent as ſhe was, who needed theddImmortale virginū decus, cùm nihil natura tibi denegaverit, ac omnia detulerit eruditio, videris tamen latere velle, & comitem rectè factorum gloriam repudiare: totnè linguas calles, ut ſileas? totnè diſciplinis generoſum iſtum inſtruxiſti animū, ut unitas agiter inglorius artes? 2. Sic Joh. Beverovicius Epiſt. ad illam p. 5. illius libri edit. 1641. Lugd. Batav. urgent perſwaſions of learned men, to let her learning be known for the benefit of others: and thougheQuod tibi nunc offertur ſpecimen faeliciſſimi ingenii virginis quae patem non habet, exiguum eſt ſi cum iis quae effecta habet & parata, comparetur: ſed pro ea qua eſt modeſtia, &c. Ibid. p. 7. ſhe have written much, worthy to be committed to publick view; yet ſuch was her modeſty, that not without much importunity, that little which is printed was extorted from her, which had not been obtained of her but that ſome had anticipated her conſent by precedent publication. I can find but few ſuch examples to commend to the imitation of women; and I need not bring more of ſuch extravagants from Chriſtian moderation, and female modeſty, as ſome fore-noted; ſince our age hath afforded many hereticall viragoes, who have dared to ſet upon Preachers in their pulpits on the Sabbath day, in full Congregations; taking upon them not onely to be opponents of their Doctrine, but to be judges both of it18 and them, which offices they uſurped with a kind of papall preſumption, as if they were guided in what they did by an infallible ſpirit; and ſome have not been aſhamed to put others to bluſh for their impudence, and theſe of both Sexes, as well Evites, as Adamites: but that which at preſent we have in purſuit and proſecution, is that intemperate humour of diſputing, of which a wiſe and learned States-man ſaid,ffPruritus diſputandi eſt ſcabies Eccleſiae. Sir Henr. Wootton, Warden of Eaton college. the itch of diſpute is the ſcab of the Church: Which he might happily take from Ludovicus Vives, who hath an expreſſion of neare affinity, or rather conſangunity unto it; As thoſeggQuemadmodum qui pruritus tic•…latione acti, nimium ſcabentes ſanguinem eliciunt, & dolor ſuccedit in locum ſuavitatis; ita iſtidum nimium ſcalpunt veritatem, &c. Ludovic. Vives de cauſis corruptar. artium l. 3. p. 127. (ſaith he) who are acted by the tickling of itch, do ſcratch too much and draw bloud, (whence there ſuccedeth ſoreneſſe for ſweetneſſe, pain for pleaſure:) So thoſe who ſcratch the truth too much by diſputation, wound it, and leave it in a condition of a neceſſity for ſome other meanes to cure and heale it.
Queſt. But are not the Proteſtants much commended by ahhSir Edw. Sands Europae Speculum. p. 85. judicious writer, for their offers of diſputation to their adverſaries in all place? For their iterated and importuned ſuits for publick audience and judgement? and is it not obſerved by him, for matter of advantage to the Proteſtant proceedings, as a thing which greatly aſſured the multitude of their ſoundneſſe, whom they ſaw ſo confident in abiding the hazard of publick triall? they standing in like termes as a ſubſtantiall juſt man, and a facing ſhifter; whereof the ones credit is greateſt there where he is beſt known, and the others where he is least.
Anſ. Whereto I anſwer, that when Luther and others made revolt from the Romiſh Religion, the Romaniſts were moſt groſſe in doctrine, moſt looſe in practiſe, (eſpecially the Prelates and the ruling Clergy) moſt injurious to the right and liberty of the people (both as men and as Chriſtians;) for which they were juſtly made odious to them which had a true reliſh of Religion or morall honeſty. All theſe particulars I could undeniably demonſtrate if there were need, and this place were fit for ſuch a proof as the charge will require: Therefore
It was the prudence of the Proteſtants, not their intemperance or diſtemper, to deſire diſputation in thoſe times; becauſe then as they had more juſt cauſe to oppoſe the Romaniſts, ſo had the Romaniſts leſſe ability to defend themſelves:19 for, as that worthy Gentleman welliiIbid. obſerveth, they were not ſo cunning then in the queſtions, nor ſo ready in their evaſions, as now they are grown: ſo that (as he ſaith) the effect of their offers, (whether received or refuſed) was in moſt places ſuch, as to draw with them an immediate alteration in Religion; and he medneth it by turning frrm the Popiſh to that which is Proteſtant. This doubt cleared, I ſhall returne to my diſcourſe of the diſputing diſcaſe, whereto as ſome have it thing cares, (as the Apoſtle ſaith, 2 Tim. 4.3. ) ſo ſome have itching tongues; ſome itching fingers and pens. Such are thoſe diſputing Papiſts, who are commonly called School-men; of whom (though Peter Lombard Biſhop of Paris, was the founder, father or maſter, (and well he deſerved that title, ſaithkkCollegit ſententias ſacrorū theologorum, & magiſter ſententiarum & ſacrorum theologorum dici meruit. Bellarm. de Eccleſ. Script. ad ann. 1145. p. 322. Bellarmine;) yet his Scholars and followers, (eſpecially Aquinas, and Scotus, with their Scholaſtick Commentators) have multiplied the number of needleſſe queſtions, far beyond the limits of ſober, reaſonable and religious inquiries. I will ſet down ſome of them, and thoſe ſo many as may ſerve to make good my charge; (not omitting others as occaſion ſhall induce me to mention them, though not of their tribe.) Beginning with Aquinas,llAquinas primpart. vol. prim. q. 6. ar. 1. and taking more out of him then any other Queſtioniſt, becauſe he is a Canonized Saint of the Romiſh Church, and in their Schooles and Bookes commonly ſtyled the Angelicall Doctor.
His queſtions are, 1. Of God. 2. Of. Chriſt. 3. Of Angels. 4. Of Men.
llAquinas primpart. vol. prim. q. 6. ar. 1.1. Whether it be agreeable to God to be good.
mmIb. q. 14 ar. 2.2. Whether God underſtand himſelf.
nnIb. q. 19. ar. 1.3. Whether there be a will in God.
ooIb. q. 21. ar. 1.4. Whether there be juſtice in God.
ppIb. q. 25. ar. 1.5. Whether there be power in God.
qqApud Ludov. Viv. in Aug. l. 18. c. 16.6. Whether he can give power to a Crastore to create.
rrAquinas ad. 2d. vol. prim. par. q. 44. ar 4.7. Whether it were convenient that God ſhould require to be beloved with all the heart.
ss2d. 2d. vo 2. q. 90. ar. 1.8. Whether God be to be praiſed with the mouth:
2. Of Christ, he hath ſome vain queſtions, but becauſe other Papiſts have far worſe, I will mention theirs rather then his. Firſt, it is a very vain and fond queſtion.ttOrat. Dan. Cromeri. oppoſ. Bellarmino. p. 170, 171. which Cromerus noteth, viz: Whether Chriſt were of the order of the Dominicans,20 or Franciſcans. But they are worſe then vain, for they are vile; worſe then fond, for they are mad: which Eraſmus hath collected, I will ſet them down in his Language; for they are moſt of them ſo profane and blaſphemous, that I am loth to deliver them in any other: and therefore I will ſet them down as I find them in that Author, ſo much the more worthy of credit, becauſe by three Popes,uuLeo Pontifex maximus dilecto filio. Eraſmo. Eraſ. Epiſt. l. 1. p. 49. idem l. 2. p. 72. Upon which the note of the index expurg. is, paternis viſceribus pius pater nutantem oviculam blandis encomiis allicere conatur. p. 237. col. 2. Leo the tenth,wwEpiſt. l. 23. p. 864. 865. Adrian the ſixth, andxPaulus P. 3. Deſid. Eraſm. Rot. Sacr. Theolog. profeſſ. diſect. fil. &c. Epiſt. lib. 27. p. 1095. Paul the third, he was acknowledged for a Son of thoſe Ghoſtly Fathers by their Letters written to him, two by Pope Leo, by Pope Adrian two, and by Pope Paul one; in all which he is not only kindly accepted, but highly commended by them. In hisyy1 Num ſint plures in Chriſto filiationes. 2 Num poſſibilis ſit propoſitio, Deus odit filium. 3 Num Deus potuerit ſuppoſitare mulierem. 4 Num Diabolum. 5 Num allnum. 6 Num Cucurbitam. 7 Num ſilicem. This is ſomewhat like that of Ludovic. Vives, An Deus poſſet ſuppoſitare hanc pennā qua ſcribo. Plut. in com. in libro. Aug. de c. 13.8 Tum quemadmodum ſi cucurbita eſſet concionatura. 9 Num editura miracula. 10 Num figenda cruci. Hac apud Eraſm. Moriae Encom. Quid ſit ſuppoſitum & ſuppoſitare in divinis, vid. Suarez. disp. Tom. 1. p. 150. diſp. 11. Moriae Encomium he rehearſeth ten, whereof the firſt is fooliſh, the reſt blaſphemous, as the learned Reader may ſee, though but in a marginall obſervation: for I had rather ſet them down on the leſt hand, covered with a Latine mask, then to place them bare-faced, for the readieſt view of an ordinary Reader.
To ſuch queſtions may pertinently be applied the cenſure of Nazianzen, they are ſo wretchedly affectedzzGreg. Naz. vol. 1. orat. 33. p. 431. (ſaith he) that they make it their delight to make trifling diſputes of divine matters, and are as preſumptuous many times in reſolving of curious queſtions, as raſh in propoſing them to the triall of diſputation;aaIdem. Orat. 35. p. 561. whoſe precipitation and temerity he thinketh very fit to be bridled and reſtrained.
3. Of Angels, Aquinas inquiresbbAquin. prim. part. vol. 2. q. 56. ar. 1. whether they know themſelves.
2. Whether their knowledge be matutine and veſpertine; which he takes occaſion to diſpute from the expreſſion ofccAug. Super Geneſ. ad lit. l. 2. c. 8. Anguſtine.
3. ddAquin. prim. part. vol. 3. 2. q. 60. ar. 3.Whether Angels love themſelves with a naturall or an elective dilection.
4. eeIb. q. 63. ar. 9.Whether as many remained in the ſtate of grace as fell from it.
215. ffIb. q. 117. ar. 2.Whether men can teach Angels.
1. Of man, whether the rib of which Eve, was made were one of Adams neceſſary ribs, or one ſuperfluous: this is the queſtion ofggPeter. ſuper Geneſin. c. 2. q. 6. p. 159. Pererius a learned Jeſuit, which by his own confeſſion is by one of his own centured for a ſuperfluous queſtions
hhIbid. Tom. 1. lib. 4. q. 2. p. 166 Quomodo ſtatu innocentiae faeminae generati poſſunt &c. Ib. q. 3. c. 2. An in ſtatu innocentiae integritas faeminei genitali s commixtione viri, &c. Ib. q. 4. col. 1.2. Whether in the ſtate of innocency, the number of males and females ſhould have been equall.
To theſe two we may adde two more out of the ſame Jeſuit; but becauſe they are not ſo modeſt as the former, I had rather make a marginall note of them, in the Latine words of the Author, then expreſſe any part of them in my Engliſh text: yet be would ſeem very baſhfull to the Popiſh Biſhop Abulenſis Toſtatus, who diſcuſſeth ſo obſcene a queſtion about circumciſion, that he cannot for ſhame make mention of it, and therefore thinketh it beſt to paſſe it over in ſilence; and ſo do I: there are many of that ſort in Sanchez his great bellied book de mat•imonio, which maketh good the words ofkkDe delectatione praeputiatorum, &c. Ita pudenda eſt illius oratio & diſputatio, ut praeſter ca ſilentio praeteriri. Perer. in Geneſ. 17. diſp. 2. p. 596. v. 1. Cū coelibatum profiteantur, nimis•e muliebrium rerum peritos teſtantur. Pareus in Gen. 19. v. 33. Pareus, of the badneſſe of ſuch as pretending to live chaſtly ſingle ſhew themſelves by their diſcourſes too well acquainted with womens matters.
Of mans death and reſurrection there are moved many diſputes, as idle and audacious as the reſt: there is one Bartholomew Sybilla hath written a whole book of ſtrange queſtions, among whichllBarth. Sybilla ſpecul. peregrin quaeſt. decad. 1. c. 2. q. 7. p. 5455. one of the paſſage of the ſoul out of the body, whether it go on the right hand or the left; whether forward or backward.
Of the reſurrection Aquinas hath many vaine queries; asmmAquin. ſupplem. tertiae part. q. 81. ar. 3 c. whether all ſhall ariſe in the male Sex, andnnIb. q. 8. ar. 2. whether the haires and nailes ſhall riſe up with the body; with many others of like ſort, which I paſſe over becauſe I would leave roome for others of another kind, which manifeſt the Papiſts to be the greateſt doters upon impertinent and unprofitable queſtions, and the boldeſt determiners of doubtfull things, that are. This appeareth not onely by their diſputes and queſtions, ſuch as I22 have obſerved already; but by their reſolution of many doubts (as they pretend) by divine revelation; which may beſt be delivered by way of queſtion and anſwer, (as in form of a Catechiſme) divers of which are ſet down in two ſuch Papiſts books, as uſually ſupplied matter to their Prieſts for Sermons to the people; of which the one is the big book of the lives of the Saints, called by themſelves the Golden Legend: though by by thoſe who have read it with indifferency, the lying legend, made by Jacobus de Voragine, as he is ordinarily termed (but asccPoſſe. Apparat. Sacr. vol. 1. p. 794. Poſſevine corrects the name, Iacob de Varagine, Archbiſhop of Geneva) his book was printed at Venice, ann. 1575. The other book is a book of ſelected Sermons, printed by Iames Kavinell, for the uſe of ſimple Prieſts who want cunning to preach: So in the title of the book, the time and place of the firſt publication of it I find not noted. This premiſed, I will begin the queſtions out of their former book of lies with the author of lies the Devil.
Quest. 1. What is the proper likeneſſe of the Devil? ddLeg. aur. fol. 244. p. 1. col. 2.He is like an Ethiopian, more black then thunder, his face ſharpe, his beard long, his haires hanging unto his feet, his eyes flaming as hot as fire, caſting out ſparkles of fire, and out of his mouth come flames of ſulphur; his hands bound with chaines of fire behind his back.
Queſt. 2. When the Devil had tempted Adam and Eve, or Adam by Eve, to eat the forbidden fruit, what penance did they undergoe, (after they had yielded to the Devil) and were expelled out of Paradiſe?
eeThebook of ſelected Sermons printed by James Kavinell Dominic. Sep. mageſ. fol. 8. p. 1. col. 2.Anſ. For many yeares before their death they ſtood either of them in water a night up to the chin, (far from one another) till their fleſh was as green as graſſe.
But we muſt make a long leap into the new Teſtament, elſe we ſhall ſtay too long, and make our queſtions too many.
Queſt. 3. Why was Peter bidden to put up his ſword when he drew it in our Saviours defence?
ffMenot, Serm. fol. 47. col. 4.Becauſe he had nor cunning enough to uſe it; for he cut off Malchus his care when he ſhould have cut off his head.
Queſt. 4. How many thornes were in the Crown that was ſet upon the head of Chriſt?
ggApol. for Herodot. l. 1. c. 35. p. 274. out of Bonaventure, Lyra & Maylard.Juſt a thouſand.
23Queſt. 5. How many wounds had the body of our Saviour in the whole?
Anſ. hhpa. 14. of the office of the Virgin, printed at Paris. ann. 1524.Five thouſand four hundred and ſixty.
Queſt. 6. What were the theeves names that were cruicified with Chriſt?
Anſ. iiLeg. aur. fol. 16. p. 1. col. 2.Dyſmas the name of him that was ſaved, and Geſmas the name of him that was damned.
Queſt. 7. Why was Dyſmas ſaved rather then Geſmas?
Anſ. kkA Franciſcan of Bourdeaux Apol. for Herodot. l. 1. c. 33. p. 260.Becauſe he would not ſuffer his fellowes to rob Chriſt when he fled into Egypt.
Queſt. 8. How know you that S. Thomas Becket (whoſe ſalvation hath beenllSee Speeds Chron. l. 9. c. 6. p. 510. col. 2. 43. called in queſtion, even among our own ca. becauſe of his contumacy againſt his King) was ſaved?
Anſ. AmmLeg. aur. fol. 180. p. 2. col. 1. young man died and raiſed by miracle, ſaid, there was in heaven a void ſeat; and asking whoſe it was, anſwer was made, that it was kept for a great Biſhop of England named Thomas of Canturbury. nnSymbolum dedit, coenavit. Ter. Andr. Act. 1. Sen. 1. Durand. Rational. l. 4. c. 25. fol. 133. p. 1. Eraſm. Catechiſm. Symboli Apoſtolor. &c. ſet out with pictures to every Article at the beginning of the book.
Queſt. 9. How was the Creed called the Apoſtles Creed compoſed by the twelve Apoſtles?
Anſ. As a ſhot made up by gueſts each paying his ſhare, for
Queſt. 10. What ſhall be the condition of the world the laſt fifteen dayes before the day of Judgement?
Anſ. ppSee Leg. aur. on the advent of our Lord. fol. 2. p. 2. col. 2. and compare it with the ſelected Sermons out of it publiſhed by James Kavinell, fol. 2. p. 2. col. 2. &c. In whoſe book the dayes are thus numbred and the number thus preciſely reckoned as precedent immediately before the day of judgement.The firſt of the fifteen dayes the water ſhall riſe upon24 the Sea, and it ſhall be higher then any hill by forty cubites.
2. The ſecond day the Sea ſhall fall down ſo low, that unneath the earth may be ſeen.
3. The third day the great fiſhes, as Whales and others, ſhall appear above the water, and ſhall cry unto Heaven, and God onely ſhall underſtand their cry.
4. The fourth day the Sea and waters ſhall brenne.
5. The fifth day all trees and herbes ſhall ſweat bloud, and all manner of fowles ſhall come together, and neither eat nor drink for dread of the doome that is coming.
6. The ſixth day all great buildings, Caſtles, Towers, Steeples and Houſes, ſhall fall down, and brenne till the Sun riſe again.
7. The ſeventh day all Stones and Rocks ſhall beat together, that each ſhall break other, with an horrible noiſe, the which ſhall be heard into Heaven.
8. The eight day the Earth ſhall quake, ſo that there may no man ſtand thereon but ſhall fall down.
9. The ninth day the people ſhall go out of their dens, and go as they were mindleſſe, and none ſpeak to other.
10. The tenth day Hills and Earth ſhall be made even and plain.
11. The eleventh day all graves and tombes ſhall open, and the bodies ſhall ſtand upon them.
12. The twelfth day Stars ſhall fall from Heaven, and ſhall ſpread out raies of fire; on this day, it is ſaid, that all the beaſts ſhall come to the field howling, and ſhall not eat nor drink.
13. The thirteenth day all living ſhall die, to the end that they ſhall riſe with the dead bodies.
14. The fourteenth day the Heaven and the Earth ſhall brenne.
15. The fifteenth day ſhall be a new Heaven and a new Earth, and all things and all dead men ſhall ariſe.
I had not been ſo ſerious, nor inſiſted ſo long in diſcoverie of the fooliſh and unlearned queſtions (ſuch as the Apoſtle reproveth, 2 Tim. 2.23. ) of the Papiſts, both polemicall Schoolmen, and Legendary Preachers, and their ridiculous vanity in reſolving many curious and ſuperfluous doubts by25 revelation; but that I have many of that deceived ſort in my pariſh, (though I thank God ſome fewer then I found when I came thither, and I hope to make them yet ſewer, if God pleaſe to give me time to effect what I have in deſire, and deſign, which is, to manifeſt, that the ruling Romaniſts are the ſubtilleſt Maſters of the ſubtilleſt Myſtery of iniquity in the world; and their ſeduced diſciples, (eſpecially the illiterate) the moſt fooliſh people in the world, from whom they keep the Scripture, and ſo keep them in blind ignorance, that (like hooded hawks) they may carry them whither they pleaſe; for which wrong they would ſeem to make them ſome recompence by ſetting images before them, which are commonly called Lay-mens books, though they can reach them none other leſſon then that a Chriſtian ſhould not learn, viz. falſhood, vanity and errours, Jer. 10.14, 15. and by pretended revelations, which are either meer forgeries of their audacious Doctors, or meer fallacies of the great deceiver mentioned by St. Iohn, Rev. 12.9. who makes them doters about queſtions and ſtrife of words, 1 Tim. 6.4. and puffeth them up to an affectation of forbidden knowledge, as he did our firſt parents, Gen. 3. and their diſciples receivers of any fooliſh fancie which they ſuggeſt unto them.)
But my principall aim in what I have hitherto ſaid in this Chapter, is, to curb thoſe men of corrupt minds, who are too prone to perverſe disputings, ſuch as the Apoſtle reproveth, 1 Tim. 6.5. and ſince (by their diſputings) queſtioning and reſolving, aiming to be wiſe above that is written, 1 Cor. 4.6. they have bewrayed their egregious folly to the world, we may tauntingly take up the queſtion of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 1.20. and put it to them, where is the wiſe? where is the Scribe? where is the disputer of the world? hath not God made fooliſh the wiſdome of this world? he hath doubteſſe: and we may take the great School-man and Queſtioniſt Aquinas for inſtance, whom thoughqqBellarm. de Eccleſ. Script. ad ann. 165. p. 347. Bellarmine commend for his holinleſſe and wiſdome, was neither ſo holy nor ſo wiſe as he ſhould have been: not ſo holy, 1. Becauſe he was ſo bold as to put to diſpute ſo many undoubted principles of divinity as we have noted.
Secondly, becauſe he lacked humility, without which there is no true holineſſe, which he might have learned of his Maſter26 PeterrrModeratior eſt Petrus Lombardus, qui ſententias alienas recitans non temerè de ſuo addit, aut ſi quid, timidè proponit. Eraſm. in Epiſt. ad Caron. delectum Epiſc. Panorum. Epiſt. l. 28. p. 1161. Lombard, of whom Eraſmus righly obſerveth, that resiting the opinions or ſentences of others, he did not raſhly adde any thing of his own; and when he added any thing, it was rather with fear then confidence.
Nor was he ſo wife as he ſhould have been: for as much as he wanted in humility, ſo much he had in pride, and as much pride, ſo much folly; for pride and folly, as humility and wiſedome, are ſorted together by the wife man, Prov. 14. v. 3. c. 11. v. 2. And though he looked for credit by his bold inquiries and concluſions, and had it of thoſe of his own ſide; yet ſuch as were ſound in the faith, and not partiall in affection, diſcovered and diſdained his pride, and ſo it was followed with ſhame, as Solomon obſerveth, Prov. 11.2. whereof we have a memorable paſſage betwixt Eraſmus, and Dr. Collet, the godly and famous Deane of Pauls, in K. H. the 8, his daies; to whom when Eraſmus had much commended Aquinas, to heare his judgement of him, and he gave him none anſwer, he propoſed and more vehemently preſſed the praiſe of him the ſecond time: to whichssTanquam afflatus Spiritu quodam, quid tu, inquit, mihi praedicas iſtum, qui niſi habuiſſet multum arrogantiae, non tanta temeritate, tantoque ſupercilio definiſſet omnia; & niſi habuiſſet aliquid Spiritus mundani, non ita totam Chriſti doctrinam ſua prophanâ Philoſophiâ contaminaſſet. Eraſm. Epiſt. ad Jodoc. Jonae l. 15. p. 486. Collet, as if he had been inſpired with an anſwer from God, preſently replyed, What meane you ſo to praiſe that man to me, who if be had not had much arrogancy in him, would not with ſuch temerity and ſuperciliouſneſſe have defined all things? and if he had not had ſomewhat of the Spirit of the world, he would not have ſo defiled the Doctrine of Chriſt with his profane Philoſophy. How worthy a man Dr. Colles was (for learning and Godlineſſe) they that deſire to know, may find a ſhort ſtory of him in Mr. Fox histFox Martyr. vol. 2. p. 54. 55. ſecond volume of Acts and Monuments, and in the fore-cited Epiſtle of Eraſmus, he was ſo much a Papiſt (being levened with the corrupt Doctrine of the age wherein he lived) that King Henry the 8. after a Sermon preached by him in his preſence, and long communication with him, by occaſion thereof diſmiſſed him with theſe words, Let every one have his Doctor as he liketh, this ſhall be my Doctor: and yet ſo much a Proteſtant both in his preaching and practiſe, that asuBiſh. Lat. in his 7th. Serm, on the Lor. Prayer. ſol. 174. p. 2. Biſhop27 Latimer ſald, he ſhould have been burned in K. H. the Eight his reigne, if God had not inclined the Kings heart to the contrary.
THough for the undoubted duties of morality, the Apoſtle preſcribeth preſent and prompt obedience, without murmurings or deſputings, and that in all things of that kind, Phil. 2.14. yet for matter of faith and conſcience he requireth no ſuch facility either in affection, or in fact; but giveth leave and leiſure, or rather adviſe to Chriſtians, to bring both the Spirits and ſpeeches of men to triall, 1 Iohn 4.1. 1 Theſ. 5.21. and when he requireth of Chriſtian believers that they be ready alwaies to give an anſwer to every one that asketh a reaſon of the hope that is in them, 1 Pet. 3.15. he meaneth (doubtleſſe) that if any cavil at that anſwer or reaſon, he that giveth it ſhould make anſwer for it to defend it; and if this be required of a Chriſtian, much more of a Miniſter, who ſhould be able by ſound Doctrine both to exhort and convince the gaianſayers, Tit. 9.11. as it is ſaid of Apollos, that he mightily convinced the Iewes, and that publickly, ſhewing by the Scripture that Ieſus was Chriſt: which may ſtop the mouths of ſome adverſaries; as they ſay offfMr. Trapp on Tit. 1.11. Frogs, that if a light be hanged over the lake wherein they lie, will leave crocking: though ſome be ſo contumacious againſt the truth, ſo malicious againſt them who prevalently plead for it, that they will rather ſtop their mouthes (by violence) who have overcome them by the power of truth, as they did by Stephen when they ſtoned him, Act. 7. v. 54, 57, 59. then confeſſe themſelves convinced or ſatisfied with the cleareſt evidence produced in the plaineſt cauſe that can be debated: but28 this is not the fault of diſputation it ſelf, but the perverſneſſe of the diſputant, who will diſputare or diſcedere (for according to that ſenſe we may make the Etymology of the word) though he have not one wiſe word to ſay for the folly and falſity of his opinion; we muſt, as ſaith that ancient Doctor and Confeſſour H•larius,ggNon tam evitanda quàm•…futanda [Dogmata] non tam refugere debemus quàm refellere, &c. Hilaran Pſal. l. 2. p. 186. not flee from the erroneous doctrines of men, a•afraid to encounter them; but muſt refell and conquer them by diſputations as Picus Mirandula ſaith, It is thehhDiſputatio cribrum veritatis. Picus Mirandula. Tom. 2. operum. 3. Epiſt. p. 853. ſieve or ſearce to ſever the fine flower of truth from the courſe branne of errour: which is not more for the honour of truth, then for the benefit of thoſe that do embrace it; for ſo diſtinguiſhed, it is not onely more amiable to the eye, and more pleaſant to the taſte, but more nutritive, as breeding better and puter nouriſhment to the ſoul. And as it is a deed and duty of charity for ſuch as have the charge of ſoules to feed them with the fineſt of the whest, and with the honey out of the rock to ſatisfie them, which is the proviſion that God is willing to bellow upon his obedient people, Pſalm 81. v. laſt: So is it alſo a charitable act and office, not to ſuffer them to be choked with the bran of errour and Hereſie, which many are too forward to obtrude upon ignorant and inconſiderate people; yea hereticall ſeducement is more dangerous then ſo, for the Apoſtle ſaith of ſuch as Hymeneus and Philetus, who were hereticks, that their ſpeech will•at like a Canker, or Gangrene, 2 Tim. 2.17. which is eaſie to catch, and hard to cure: what their Hereſie in patticular was, is not diſcovered in the Scriptures, nor in any ancient Author near the times wherein they lived: of Philetus there is mention but once, that is in the place fore-cited; of Hymeneus twice, viz. both here and 1 Tim. 1. laſt, where he hath another malignant mate named with him, viz. Alexander, whom Saint Paul delivered to Satan, that they might learne not to blaſpheme: by which we learn, it was a blaſphemous Doctrine, and probably it was (asiiTheodoret on the 1 Tim. 1. laſt. Theodoret conceiveth) well known to Timothy; and we know that a Canker and Gangrene are very dangerous diſeaſes, and thoſe who are Spirituall Phyſicians, ought in charity to do their beſt to keep their flocks from ſuch infective and deſtructive miſchiefs. And if diſputation be a meanes, as being wiſely ordered it may prove, it may be expedient29 that way to curb and diſcourage Hereticks from corrupting of them: which may ſerve alſo for an antidote to preſerve their ears from the venome and poyſon of hereticall tongues; who, if they be let alone, without oppoſition will go on to ſubvert whole houſes, as the Apoſtle ſaith, Tit. 1.11. And as for prevention of the ſpreading of Hereſie, ſo for recovery of ſuch as are already enſnared by it, and for reconciliation of ſuch as diſſent in judgement and affection, diſputations may be requiſite and uſe•ull; to which purpoſekkPollid. in vita Aug c. 3. Honorius the Emperour compelled the Donatiſts to give meeting to the Catholi•ks, and ſometimes they have proved very advantageous to the truth: Thus it was in the beginning of the reformation of Religion, when the errours of Popery were in their nature more groſſe, more rude in their dreſſe, and their Prieſts nothing ſo politick as ſince they have been; the ProteſtantsllSir Edw. Sands Europae ſpeculum. p. 85. loffired disputations in all places the effects whereof, as were touched before whether received or refuſed, drew with them an immediate alteration of Religion: for if they were received, the better cauſe prevailed; if they were not, they who refuſed gave cauſe of ſuſpicion, that their Coine howſoever it were gilded, was indeed but Copper, which could not (as pure gold) endure to be tried by the touch ſtone; and the alteration of Religion then was ſuch asmmDiſputatio Bernenſis ſ•une finem habuit apud illos & aliquot vicinos, miſſae, arae & ſtatuae erant abolitae. Surius commentar. ann. 1527. p. 208. Surius complaineth of; Maſſes, Altars and images were aboliſhed.
And as diſputation, if ordered as it ought to be, may produce good effects, ſo the want of that, eſpecially the refuſall of it, when it is importunately called for by the adverſaries, may give them occaſion of inſulting; andnnTaciturnitas corumquireſiſtere deberent perverrenti•…us fidei veritatē, eſſet errorisconfirmatio. Epiſt. Synod. in Concil. Baſil. Tom. 8. p. 230. col. 2. the ſilence of ſuch as ſhould conteſt with them may be turned to the confirmation of errour, as is obſerved in the Synodall Epiſtles of the Councill of Baſil, which was likely to have been the ill effect of yours and Doctor Grewes refuſall to encounter with M. Knowles and Mr. Kiffin, if you had not been as reſolute to reſiſt them as they were preſumptuous to provoke you to diſpute.
Laſtly, as conferences and debates may effect much ſpirituall good, if managed as they ſhould be, (and I ſtill underſtand them with that limitation) ſo may they be meanes of30 corporall good alſo; for where no diſputations are allowed of, there the matters of difference are carried with more fraud, force and violence; as we have touched before upon the Spaniſh Inquiſition, and may obſerve further, out of the**Neque in diſputando apud tales pertinaci animoſitate centendentes & annitentes propriae prudentiae, ullus unquam erit finis; &c. Cochleus Hiſt. lib. 1. c. 21. Chap. 2. let. n. Epiſtle of John Gerſon to the Archbiſhop of Prague, wherein he would not have him to put the matters in difference with the Bohemian Proteſtants to diſputation, but adviſeth him to take another courſe, which is to cut down Hereſie by the Temporall Sword; he meanes the Hereticks: for (ſaith he) by disputing with ſuch as with pertinacious animoſity contend, leaning to their own prudence, there will never be an end, &c.
This agreeeth well with that of Eccius, who (as we noted before) wrote one Treatiſe againſt diſputation with Hereticks, another for burning of them; which Bellarmine would have taken not for a perſecution of them, but for an act of favour and benefit to them, as we ſhall have occaſion more particularly to note in the fifth chap. Much more charitable and Chriſtian was theppCan. 66. Synod Lond. ann. 1604. Canon of our Engliſh Biſhops for conference with Recuſants; and had they been as carefull to ordain onely good and able Miniſters as they ſhould have been, we might have found better fruits of their government then we have done. But the effects and iſſues of colloquies, conferences and diſputations, I reſerve for another chapter, viz. the fifth now cited.
OF diſputations, ſome are managed without the ſtrife tongues, Pſal. 31.10. as the dialogues or colloquies of Plato, Cicero, Lucian, among the Heathens; and ſome of Athanaſius, Hierome, Auguſtines tracts among the ancient Fathers; Galatinus, Eraſmus, Peter Martyr, and other, of later times. To this head may be referred the polemicall diſcourſes, that are read in Schooles, or publiſhed in print, or both, of differences in Religion; as Bellarmine calleth his Volumes of controverſies, Diſputations, though there appeared none oppoſite to diſpute againſt him. And ſome, though agitated with ſtrife of tongues, are not like the diviſions of Reuben, great thoughts of heart, Judg. 5.15. Such are the diſputes now in print, whereof Gilbert Voetius profeſſour at Ʋtriect was moderator, betwixt a viſible and vocall Opponentand Reſpondent, contradicting each other, yet without any hearty oppoſition; both parties, though adverſe in words, yet of one mind and one judgement: and ſo it is in the ordinary Academicall diſputations of Oxford and Cambridge, where the controverſie is rather formall then ſerious, except when the Reſpondent taketh upon him the defence of ſome Paradox, as one Mr. Ph. of Mort. Colledge did in my time, who propoſed this for an Actqueſtion,aaAn liceat pro puncto honoris aliquem interficere. Whether for a point of honour it were lawfull for any one to kill another: wherein he held the affirmative, which how it32 came to p•ſſe that it was permitted I know not; ſure I am that divers learned and conſcientious men were diſpleaſed with it: or when the Opponent is of a contrary judgement to the Reſpondent, as Mr. Tombs to Doctor Savage, when at the Act in Oxford he diſputed againſt the Baptiſm of Infants. This was very contrary to manner of the old Academicks of the Plato's inſtitution, ſo called from thebbAcademici ex locivocabulo nomen habuerunt. Cicer. Acad. quaeſt l. 1. edit. 2. p. 34. 12. place where the Philoſophers met to diſpute, I mean for peremptorineſſe of opinion; who were ſo far from maintaining paradoxall poſitions or concluſions, that they would poſitively conclude, or determine nothing at all, holding asccId habebant Academici decr•tum, nihil poſſe percipi. Cic. Ib. edit. 1. l. 2. p. 49. Num. 29. a decree, that nothing by diſpute could be diſcovered; wherein ſome were ſo abſurd (asddChius Metrodorus in initio libri qui eſt de natura, nego, inquit, ſcire nos ſciamusne aliquid, an nihil ſciamus. Ib. p. 17 Num. 67. Chius Metrodorus) that they denyed a man could know whether he knew any thing or nothing; and therefore though they diſputed much, it waseeProprium eſt Academiae judicium ſuum nullum interponere, ſed quod in quamque ſententiam diei poſſit expromere, ſed judicium audientibus relinquere integrum & liberum. Cicer. de divin. l. 2. p. 305. proper to their diſcipline to bring in reaſons on both ſides, to find out what is moſt likely, and ſo without paſſing any ſentence to leave the judgement wholly to the hearers. Thef〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Diog. Laert. in vita Pyrthonis lib. 9. p. 675. Scepticks in Diogenes Laertius, were of near affinity to them, who were ſo called, becauſe they were ever ſeeking, and never found what they ſought for: there were Sceptick women in the Apoſtles time, 2 Tim. c. 3. v. 7. Our Seekers are ſuch in their Religion as thoſe were in Philoſophy, but ſo much the worſe, as it is to be ignorant or unreſolved of truth in Religion, eſpecially in ſuch points as are fundamentall, then of points philoſophicall. But the Academicall diſputations of Chriſtians are as well concluſive as diſcurſive, although it were better that ſome Academies were rather Scepticall then definitive, viz. ſuch as were founded of purpoſe for oppoſition to the truth in the name of Hereſie, as that ofgDua cenſis Academia in Relgio ſuperioribus annis à Philip. 2. Rege Catholico inſtituta, cum per Germ. & Galliam perniciociſſimas haereſes increbreſcere videret, &c. Jacob. Meddendorp. de Academ l. 3. p. 524. Dowey by Philip the ſecond King of Spain. The uſe of Diſputations, colloquies and conferences rightly inſtituted, and according to the inſtitutions obſerved, ſerves not onely to clear problematicall,hNon inutilitèr exercentur ingenia, ſi adhibeatur diſceptatio modetata, & abſit error opinantium ſe ſcire quod neſciunt. Auguſtin. Eachirid. ad Laurent. c. 59. Tom. 3. part. 1. p. 218. and to aſſure and confirme fundamentall33 doctrines, but are profitable, as Austine obſerveth, for the exerciſe of wit, if the diſceptation be moderate, and without the errour of ſuch as think they know that they know not.
Though I mention theſe Academicall diſputations, as in honour to learning, to which we ſhould take all fair occaſions to give laudable teſtimony; eſpecially ſince ſome in theſe times with a Turkiſh Antipathy to learning, cry down Academicall Colledges, Books, Studies, exerciſes, and would Levell thoſe faire Fabricks, as Babylonian buildings, even with the ground, unleſſe they might take them in poſſeſſion for themſelves, (which once the Levellers attempted;) yet I make them rather a Proem then a part of mine hiſtoricall Catalogue, which ſhall conſiſt of the perſonall debates of ſuch as are far from the profeſt Union of the Apoſtle, in ſpeaking the ſame thing, and being perfectly joyned together in one mind and one judgement, 1 Cor. 1.10. whoſe minds are contrary, and their tongues contradictory, and their pens alſo; when they take them up like pikes to proſecute the war by writing, which by verbal diſputation they began.
The diſpute betwixt Michael and the Arch•ngel, with the Devil about the body of Moſes, mentioned in the 9. of Jude,iiJacob. Salianus Anno Mundi 2583. 329. ante Chriſti nat. anno 1440. p. 310. col. 1. for antiquity hath the precedency of all others; and though ſome take it in a figurative ſenſe, the moſt and beſt expoſitors underſtand it literally: yet there is great difference what was the difference betwixt them; Jude ſaith the ſubject of it, was the body of Moſes; and about that, that chief controverſie was whether Moſes body ſhould be ſo buried, that no man ſhould know of his Sepulchre, as it is ſaid, Deut. 34.6. Why his buriall-place ſhould be concealed, the reaſon which hath the beſt ground, and moſt concurrent conſent is, becauſe he was ſo worthy and renowned a man, ſo much honoured by God and man while he lived, that, conſidering the people of Iſraels proneneſſe to Idolatry, his body was like to be made an Idol by them: wherein he gainſaid the Angel, as if he were zealous for the honour of Moſes, though he might intend his diſhonour by contemptuous abuſe of it by his enemies. But is it not ſaid that he died on Mount Nebo, (which is the top of Piſgah, whence he ſaw the Land of Canaan, Deut. 34. v. 1, 2, 3, 4.) and was buried in a valley in the Land of Moab, over againſt Bethptor,34 Deut. 34.6. Yes, but for all that though he were carried by the Divine power or Miniſtry of the Angell into the valley and there buried, yet no man ſaw in what part of the valley his body was interred: But did not the Devil know the place? if ſo, he might diſcover it, and act according to the evil ends before rehearſed; ſo that the anſwer may be, that if God pleaſed he could keep it ſecret from the Devil, if the Devil knew it, he could make him keep it ſecret; if he were never ſo deſirous to reveal it: and herein askkCum Diabolus revelare & prodere vellet Judaeis ad idololatriā pronis, impeditus eſt & rohibitus ad Archangelo Michael. Adrichon. Delph. Theatr. terrae Sanctae in tribu Ruben. p. 126. col. 1.3. I conceive conſiſted the conteſtation betwixt Michael and the Devil, that when the Devil would have diſcovered the Sepulchre of Moſes to the Jewes, prone to Idolatry, he was prohibited and hindred by the Angell, There is, ſaith““Inter angelos bonos & malos perpetua diſputatio eſt, &c. Luth. Icom. claſſ. c. 36. p. 100. Luther, a perpetuall diſpute betwixt the good and the bad Angels; the good Angels propoſe and promote good things; the bad Angels bad: the good anſwer all objections, and reprehend them for their Counſells and courſes. Another notable diſputation with the Devil we read of, Mat. 4. and Luke 4.llAnn. Chriſti. 31. Anno. Chriſti. 34. called by ſome a Monomachie or ſingle combate betwixt our Saviour and him, wherein the queſtion was, whether Chriſt was the Son of God or no; the Devil was opponent, and Chriſt the Reſpondent, as you may read in the two precedent Chapters. By theſe two examples we are taught two things, for our inſtruction and imitation, from the former, not to give railing ſpeeches in diſputes, Jude, 9. By the other we are directed with what weapon to wage our war, (viz.) the word of God. But my hiſtoricall narrative I ſhall make up of meer humane examples; beginning firſt with the Protomartyr Stephen, in the Hiſtory of the Acts of the Apoſtles,mmBucolzer. Ind. Chron. p. 135. which containeth the memorable perſons and paſſages of the Church, for the ſpace of twenty ſix yeares, beginning at the aſcenſion of Chriſt, and ending at his 59. yeare, and the 4. of Nero, there, viz. Act. c. 6. v. 9. We read that there aroſe certain of the Synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and them of Cilicia and of Aſia disputing with Stephen; thennThema diſputationis eſt, An Jeſus Nazarenus ſit verus Meſſias, &c. Stephanus affirmat ita eſſe, neganti proferuntur argumenta in medium contra ſententiam Stephani, verū is ea ita refringit, &c. Centari, l. 2. c. 12. p. 648. Centur. Magdetur genſes, ſet forth this diſputation in a formall manner, ſetting down, firſt the Theme or argument of their diſputation, or queſtion, viz. Whether Jeſus Chriſt be the Meſſias foretold by, the Prophets and whether all things foretold of the Meſſias by the35 Prophets, may be applied to and were fulfilled in him, and the works recorded of him. Stephen affirmeth, they deny; they propoſe their arguments, Stephen refuteth them &c.
Paul, as himſelf confeſſeth to God, Acts 22.20. When the bloud of the Martyr Stephen was ſhed, he was ſtanding by and conſenting to his death, and kept the raiment of them that flew him; and they ſlew him by ſtoning him, Acts 7.59. but God, by that hard-hearted cruelty, and Stephens Patience, Charity, and Piety, and the divine power concurring together, was occaſionall and cauſall for his converſion, and after that he became a zealous Champion for Chriſt and his truth, and diſputed for it and him as Stephen did, for he ſpake boldly in the name of the Lord Jeſus, and diſputed againſt the Grecians, Acts 9.29. in the Synagogue of the Iewes, and with devout perſons, and in the Market daily with them that met him, Acts 17.17. and c. 19. he disputed daily in the School of one Tyrannus, Acts 19.9. Whether this Tyrannus were a Prince or ſome potent man of rule