A DISCOURSE OF DISPUTATIONS Chiefly concerning matters of Religion, with Animadverſions on two printed Books, (mentioned in the Contents following next after the Epiſtles:) The latter whereof, at the requeſt of Dr. John Bryan, (for Cenſure and Advice) being ſeriouſly peruſed; The Author of it, JOHN ONLEY, is thereupon convinced of Error, Slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miſcarriage, not onely towards him, but all the Reformed Churches of the world, out of the way of his moſt affected ſingularity.
By John Ley, Rector of the Church of Solyhull in Warwickſh.
Anſwer him not.
Non de Adverſario victoriā, ſed de mendacio quaerimus veritatē.
WHERETO IS ADDED A Conſolatory Letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed Son Mr. NATHANIEL BRYAN: Which immediately followeth after the Diſcourſe of Diſputations.
LONDON, Printed for Nath: Webb and Will: Grantham, at the black Bear in St. Pauls Church-yard, over againſt the little North door, MDCLVIII.
IN the publication of theſe papers, I could not but conceive you had ſome intereſt, as a friend to the cauſe and perſon moſt medled within them; nor to him onely, but to all the(a)(a)Dr. Briaes. Dr. Grow. Mr. Baſnet. three religious and learned Miniſters of your City, wherein (methinks) you much reſemble Geneva for number and quality, when it enjoyed an holy Triumvirat of Farellus, Viret, & Calvin, in that order Beza nameth them in the life of Calvin, and giveth them their ſeveral characters, ſo as of all three to make up one(b)(b)Saepe mihi in ment•m veni•p•rfectum quodammedo videri poſſe paſtorem qui ex tribusillis eſſet conflatus. Beza in vitam Calvin. p. 8. perfect Paſtor. I ſhall doe thoſe renowned reformers no wrong, if I ſay of your Preachers, that each of them is complete in himſelfe without his partners: Such hath been the proficience of the Pulpit (both by preaching and praying) ſince their times, and more in England then elſewhere; as divers Travellers (who have had opportunity to know, and ability to judge; and many forraign Divines, who underſtanding our language, have read our printed Sermons, and compared them together with thoſe of other Nations) have cenſured. I teſtifie this truth the rather, becauſe, though there be ſome difference in judgement, (bleſſed be God it is not great) yet there is no diſſenting in affection among them. Religious duties are unanimouſly performed: Chriſtian ſociety and Miniſterial brotherhood ſweetly maintained, and all offices ſuitable to ſuch relations, mutually and affectionately exchanged: to whoſe concord and communion, I ſhall make bold to apply His Highneſs Eulogium of the Army in his Narrative from Briſtol, Sept. 14. 1645. in(c)(c)Engl. Recovery. part. 2. p. 118. theſe words; Presbyterians, Independents, all have here the ſame Spirit of Faith and Prayer, the ſame preſence and anſwer, they agree here, and have no names of difference: Pity it is it ſhould be otherwiſe any where.
Now as I have matched your City with Geneva for your Miniſters, ſo I wiſh your City-Magiſtrates may match theirs in vigilancy, vigour, and good effects of Government, who (as Bodin, a famous French Papiſt, maketh the report of them)(d)(d)Ridiculum eſt ad legem eſſe bonos; allam cenſuram quâ nil magis ac divinius cogitari potuit ad coercendas hominū cupiditates latenter primùm, & amicè, quam ſequitur animadverſio magiſtratuum. Jo. Bod. Method. Hiſt. c. 6. p. 245. Ita fit ut quae legibus nuſquam, &c. igitur nullae meretrices, nullae ebrietates, nullae ſaltationes, nulli menaici, null otioſi in ea civitate reperiuntur. Ibid. holding it a ridiculous thing, to be good onely by good Lawes, follow Conſiſtorian Cenſures againſt the Contumacious, with civil Animadverſion of the Magiſtrates. Hence it commeth to paſs that thoſe vices which no where elſe, are there reſtrained, ſo that there is no whoredom, no drunkenneſs, no dancing, no beggars, no idle perſons to be found in that City.
My hopes come up the higher toward my wiſhes hereof, becauſe you do not onely encourage your able, watchful, and painful Paſtors many wayes eſpecially, as the Apoſtle admoniſheth, Heb. 13.17. by your Chriſtian compliance with their holy Miniſteries, (ſeconded by their exemplary practice) but you do the like to your learned, pious, and induſtrious Schoolmaſter,(e)(e)Mr. Samuel Frankland. alſo with the ingenuous and hopeful youths under his inſtitution. This you manifeſted in a very eminent manner, when the laſt year Mr. Major, with your ſelfe, the Aldermen, and many other ſubordinate Citizens, came in a venerable equipage to the Free-School, to grace their exerciſes with your preſence and audience: & though I cannot ſay with intelligence, of all or moſt, becauſe a good part of it was Greek, (a ſtrange Tongue even to the Roman Prieſts, and that byggGraecum eſt non poteſt legi. (Proverb) yet ſome did underſtand it; more the Latine: and the pleaſantneſſe of their voices, the gracefulneſſe of their elocution and action, the fidelity of their memories, preſented a gratefull experiment to ſuch as were skilled in neither of them, and exerciſed no faculty ſuperiour to ſence and fancy. hhIt is under conſultation I heare hereafter to give ſome reſpective entertainment to ſuch in their Native Language.But that which the wiſer ſort of Spectators and Auditors of all ranks (I conceive) chiefly intended, was, to profeſſe themſelves opponents to the late illiterate Sects, who cry down Schools and Univerſities, and would have our Miniſters no more learned then the Italian Friers of the order of S. Ignorance, who (as Luther writeth of them) were forced to ſolemn oathes that they would neither know, learn, or underſtand any thing at all, but ſhould anſwer all queſtions with neſcio Now if you had confined your beneficence to the Miniſters and other profeſſors of learning within your own City-walls; I ſhould have held my ſelf the leſſe obliged to this publick acknowledgement: but, Sir,iiLuther, Colloquia menſalia, or Divine diſcourſe at his Table. c. 40. p. 415. it is too extenſive in this kind to be either perſonally or locally limited. So that if the Arminians had not rendred the expreſſion ſuſpected of hereſie, I would call it Univerſall Grace, or Catholick charity. (to our whole reformed Tribe, and to all ingenuous Students their allies) if the Papiſts had not ſoiled that word with a ſavour of their Ubiquitary errour. I have this confidence by intelligence from ſuch as (upon experience) own you as a Patron of their juſt cauſes, in taking timely cognizance of them, and giving your efficacious countenance unto them: and to my ſelf, you have been pleaſed, (though yet I have had none opportunity to be any way ſerviceable to you) to anticipate my deſires, in the offer of your favour. For all which (in my brethrens name, and mine own) I profeſſe my ſelf,
IN the Epiſtle to Samuel Ebrall, Eſq; in the ſecond Page l. 6. r. Mr. O. Pag. 1. l. 7. dele two. r. Parentheſis. p. 2. l. 18. r. your. p. 3. l. 5. r. altercation. P. 4. in marg. r. arrogantia. p. 5. l. 5. r. 40. in marg. r. 26. r. Roſcius. l. 29. r. diſcovered. p. 6. r. l. 20. r. Trapp. l. 18. r. Butler. p. 7. l. 1. r. catholicks. p. 8. l. 19. r. may. p. 10. l. 11. r. Venice. p. 15. marg. r. quod. p. 16. l. 37. r. challenges. p. 19. l. 25. r. 1. of God. p. 21. l. 24. of man. p. 22. l. 11. r. Genoa. l. 29. r. all night. p. 26. l. 1. r. rightly in marg. r. deletum. p. 28. l. 2. r. diſſentire. l. 8. adde for. p. 29. in marg. r. Poſſed. p. 34. l. 6. r. to. l. 22. r. things. in marg. r. ab. p. 35. l. 26. r. Expoſitors. p. 37. l. 5. r. the. p. 38. l. 29. r. Papinus. p. 41. l. 12. r. Phflugius. p. 44. l. 5. adde day. p. 46. l. 33. add theſe. l. 34. adde Campian. l. 35. adde, the Conference. p. 47. l. 15. adde, it. p. 48 Chap. V. Contents of the Chap. adde with the cauſes of them. l. 22. r. was. p. 49. l. 1. r. two. p. 51. l. 20. r. 1574. p. 53. l. 31. adde, it. l. 36. adde, as. l. 38. adde forenoted. l. 39. r. ſome. adde, a doubt. d. 54. l. 8. dele is. p. 55. l. 15. dele in another Chapter. p. 58. l. 10. adde, as a fained. l. 34. add, to doubtful debate. p. 62. l. 17. dele for. l. 33. dele for Coſterus. p. 63. l. 7. r. and. l. 19. r. Coſterus. p. 69. l. 3. r. fifty. l. 16. adde In. p. 94. l. 1. r. hinges. l. 26. adde them. p. 95. l. 21. adde, a man to ſleep. p. 97. l. 8. r. helpleſs. p. 100. over againſt. l. 6. r. in marg. So in the Diſputation at Kenelnsworth publiſhed by Mr. O. P. 50. p. 124. l. 10. r. like.
YOu were an hearer (as I have heard) of the Diſputation at Killingworth betwixt Dr. John Brian, and John Onely, but (as he hath ſet it forth in print) it would be more ſuitable to ſay Dr. John Onely, and John Brian; ſo far hath the arrogancy of the man magnified himſelf, without due reſpect to the modeſty of a Chriſtian, the ingenuity of a Scholar, and the diſcretion of an ordinary rationall man; and ſo much hath he vilified the Doctor (in another book publiſhed by him ſince) whom all men (who know him, and are of any note for Learning and Religion,) highly honour for a very eminent degree of them both: and for his excellent faculty, and indefatigable diligence in Preaching and Catechiſing, there be very few who are comparable to him Nor do I know Mr. Onely his match among the Antipaedobaptiſts, (as he calleth his Aſsiſtants at the diſputation at Kill. ) for inſolence of Spirit, ſupercilious contempt of ſuch as are not taken with his Tenets. Some I am ſure there are who though they have too much affinity with ſome of his fancies and opinions, ſhew much manſuetude and civility to thoſe that ſteer their Miniſteriall and Chriſtian courſe by other principles; yea and they hold religious communion with them in publick ordinances not distinctive. But Mr. Onely, as he hath a name of ſingularity, ſo he is the fitter to be the ringleader of ſome notorious Schiſme; like Primianus a Donatist in the Collation at Carthage, to whom, if a denomination had been given him (out of a time of faction) according to his learning and manners, it muſt have been, not Primianus, but Ultimianus. This with my diſcourſe of Diſputations in matter of Religion, mine animadverſions on the printed Diſputation hold at Kill. and on Mr. D. his ſecond book, and my deſired advice to Dr. Brian, (concerning it) whether to anſwer him or no; I have preſented to publick view, with a particular addreſſe unto your ſelf; that of a true and intelligent witneſſe, you may become an equall and competent judge of the difference betwixt the Dr. and Mr. O. ſuper tota materia as now it is drawn out in his ſecond book: and I was glad of this occaſion to teſtifie how much contentment I take in the ſituation of my Reſidence, as in vicinity to yours, whereby I have the opportunity of enjoying your good neighbourhood, your friendly viſits, and many other affectionate offices; whereto there ſhall be no want of any anſwerable returnes which come within the capacity of the hearty prayers, and beſt obſervance of
YOur Conſolatory Letters I cannot ſufficiently bleſs God and You for, and therefore do again return my moſt humble and hearty thanks for your very great labour of love therein expreſſed, withal earneſtly craving leave to make them publick; the doing whereof, will (I am aſſured) redound much to the glory of God, erecting many ſouls dejected for the like loſs, and furtherance of your own glorious reward in the great day of account and refreſhing, which ſhall come from the preſence of the Lord.
Sir, there is another trouble fallen upon my ſpirit, wherewith I take the boldneſs to acquaint you; occaſioned by an Examination of ſome of my Arguments for the truth of our Parochial Churches by my Antagoniſt John Onley, which hath been abroad (as I hear) a long time, but lately came to my notice by a Miniſter 20. miles diſtant. I find the Book ſo full of bitterneſs and arrogancy, that I queſtion whether it be better to let the man alone, or to anſwer him according to his folly: I have ſent it to you, requeſting your peruſal thereof, and your advice what I ſhall doe (with all convenient ſpeed) which ſhall lay a further Obligation upon.
To which Letter of Dr. Brian, a ſhort and ſummary anſwer is returned in the next leaf; a full one in the whole diſcourſe following.
THough you would not uſe the liberty I gave you for correction of the long conſolatory diſcourſe I ſent you,aa〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Saph. Carm. p. 58. Edit. Henr. Steph; in 12. Cum Pindaro & aliis Lyricis Poetis Graecis. which (I am glad to perceive by your reſpective return) was as well taken by you, as intended by me: Yet have I made ſo bold with your ſhort gratulatory Letter, as to expunge the two Parentheſis of the two firſt lines, as comming too near the poeticall hyperbole, uſed in the praiſe of the Poems of Sappho, wherein though your errour of brotherly love might be excuſed, my errour of ſelf-love would not be pardoned, if I ſhould be ſo vain as to own your Encomium as due to any dictate of mine; all I can juſtly claim being no more then a witneſſe to my good will, and endeavour to do well. Waving then that part of the reaſons of your requeſt for publication of it in print, I am content upon the account of the reſt which you have rendred, to give it up to your diſpoſall, in hope of the good effects which (as you preſage) it may produce. And for the ſecond part of your Letter, wherein you make juſt complaint of Mr. John Onely his injurious dealing with you, and deſire mine advice, Whether it were better to let the man alone, or to anſwer a fool according to his folly; you ſhall have mine anſwer2 with my reaſons, but firſt I muſt tell you that I no ſooner put pen to paper for that purpoſe, but I found my ſelf by what I have read and obſerved of the diſputations of the precedent and preſent age, both minded of, and moved to an Enlargement of my labour, beyond the limits of your requeſt and expectation: So far as while I pay a debt of love to you, to make others indebted unto me (by your occaſion, and for your ſake) by delivering ſomewhat of importance, and (I hope) alſo capable of their acceptance, which haply would not have come to their notice by another hand; and this the rather, becauſe I do not think Mr. O. worthy of ſo much of my notice and reſpect, as of purpoſe to appeare in publick againſt him, or any man of his temper and condition: It will be enough for him to be brought in as an occaſion or an appendix to that which is of more moment. I ſhall then thus divide my diſcourſe; treating
1. Of Diſputations in generall concerning matters of Religion.
2. Of our Diſputation with Mr. J. O. in particular, as by him it is publiſhed, and his examination of ſome of your Arguments, ſet forth in print, to ſet forth himſelf as a Triumphant Antagoniſt (for his Sect,) not onely over you, but over all the reformed Churches throughout the world. Of whom when I come to that part, I ſhall give you my ſenſe and apprehenſion as he deſerveth; and mine advice touching an anſwer to him as you deſire, and I conceive to be moſt convenient.
Firſt for the Generall, I ſhall reduce it to, and comprehend the whole in the firſt ſix enſuing Chapters, as their contents are ſet down in the foregoing Table.
SOme are not altogether againſt diſputations in Religion, but are jealous over them with a godly jealouſy, as Paul was over his Corinthians, 2 Cor. 11.2. leſt they ſhould be inconſiderately undertaken, or indiſcreetly managed, and ſo asbbIſti dum nimium ſcalpunt veritatem amittunt (ut acutusille mimi verſiculus;) nimium altercando veritas amittitur. Ludovic. Vives de cauſis corruptar. artiū. l. 3. p 127. Ludovicus Vives ſaith; The truth by too much ſcratching and alteration ſhould be loſt; leſt errour by artificiall arguments and ornaments ſhould have ſuch a glorious flouriſh and varniſh ſet upon it, as to make it to be taken for the truth: which is not unlike to fall out; for ſomeccInterdum orichalcum magis exprimit colorem auri quā aurum ipſum. Ibid. Copper (ſaith he,) hath a more glorious Luſtre then ſome true gold. And nothing, asddNihil eſt tam incredibile quod non dicendo fiat probabile; nihil tam horridum, tam incultum, quod non splendeſcat oration•. Cicer. paradox, Prooem. p. 436. Num. 3. Cicero obſerveth in the prooeme of his Paradoxes, is ſo incredible, but by elequence it may be made to appeare probable. Nothing is ſo horrid, but by a garniſh of words it may be made to ſhine. This impoſture is eaſily put upon the vulgar; foreNihil tam facile quàm vilem plebeculam linguae volubilitate decipere, quae quicquid non intelligit plus admiratur. Hierom. ad Nepor. de vita Cler. Tom. 1. p. 14. it is very eaſy with volubility of tongue to deoeive the ſimple common people, who What they do not perceive with understanding, they receive with admiration; nor can theyfGarrulitatem authoritatem putant. Idem. Epiſt. Ocean. vol. 2. p. 324. put a due difference betwixt garrulity and authority: And they are commonly more affected with what they ſay who gainſay ſolid and long believed verity under pretence of new diſcoveries of truth; and errour then with what hath warrant from the word of God, and conſent of all the Chriſtian Churches of the world, both of ancient or of later times: and the fallacy takes with them the more tenderly, becauſe theſe4 Novell Dogmatiſts make a faire profeſſion of mortification and ſelf-deniall, refuſing thoſe advantages and accommodations of a comfortable living, which their oppoſites do enjoy; and bear themſelves boldly againſt authority, as if they meant to merit that Elogium which the Diſciples of the Pha•iſees with the Herodians gave of our Saviour, Mat. 22.16. Maſter we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God truth; neither careſt thou for any man, for thou regardeſt not the perſonſ of man. And therefore they ſet up what Religion they plea•e, making their conventicles when and what they pleaſe, and in them ſpeaking of God and man what they pleaſe, that which is fitter to be whiſpered in the dark or rather buried in eternall ſilence, then as Divine dictates, as our Saviour would have them, publiſhed on the houſe-top, Luk. 12.3. yet that their more private carriage of their profeſſion in Chimnie-houſes, where there is ever more ſmoke then light, may not be interpreted to their prejudice, as if they had not conſcience and confidence to own their tenets in publick; they have preſumed many times, even the weaker ſex hath ſo much ſtrength of fancy and will, as to offer to ſet up their new lights in our ſteeplehouſes, and to call our Preachers down from their Pulpits, as having no calling from God to be Preachers of the Goſpel: and herein many of the ſhallower fort do ſo applaud themſelves, that they had rather appeal to them to be their judges,ggFactus eſt populus ſpectator, arbiter, Index. Ludovic. Vives. de cauſis corrupt. artium. l. 1. p. 38. as ſome judicious writers have obſerved, then to any others; &hhInde arrogantia, quod aliquod ſibi viderentur quia ſtulto judici videbantur. Idem l. 3. p. 327. they arrogantly applaud themſelves in their approbation. But that which maketh the wiſer ſort more unwilling to give too much way to religious diſputations, or rather to diſputations of Religion (eſpecially in publick) is the ſubtilty of ſome of unſound principles & the ſimplicity of others of a better belief; who ſuſpecting no deceipt, & confiding in the ſtrength of truth, are eaſily intangled with ingagements to diſpute to the greateſt diſadvantage of their cauſe, not forethinking how their adverſaries may be furniſhed for aſſault; and what liberty of miſreport they will take, either to make ſhew of victory, or to ſhadow a foil; this inconvenience is obvious to an ordinary apprehenſion: But there are ſome ſtratagematicall depths, and policies of thoſe who are Maſters in the Myſteries of iniquity, both of the old5 and new Antichriſtian faction, which I confeſſe my ſhallowneſſe had not imagined, had I not been informed of them by a double teſtimony of good account and credit; the one was told me by a Learned Scotchman, a great Traveller, when we met and became well acquainted in Oxford, which though above 4 yeares ago I very well remember it was thus. The Proteſtants of Luthers and Calvins profeſſion have had many diſputes and conferences in ſeverall places, whichiiThe Proteſtants have had above 100 meetings, conferences, diſputations, councels and Synods, from their firſt diſputation held at Lypſia upon the year 1519 to their ſynod in Vilna, 590. So Parſons Preface to the 10. diſputations recounted by John Fox, v. 26. he takes his ingelligence from. Staniſlaus Reſcaus his obſervations, and meanes, though he do not particularly quote his Book, wch he calleth Miniſtromachiam, in qua Evangelicorum Magiſtrorum & Miniſtro•••de evangelicis magiſtris & miniſtris mutua judicia Teſtimonia &c. recenſentur. E••uſ. Coleniae. apud Henric. Falken. birg. 1522. Parſons numbers to above a 100. betwixt them; at one of their meetings, which brought them near a concluſion of accord, there came in a man in the name of a Lutheran Miniſter, which deſired to be heard, and he was admitted to ſpeak; and he ſo ſet up ſoothed and animated the Lutherans, to ſtand out againſt all complyance with the Calviniſts, and ſo exaſperated the Calviniſts with reproch, that they went away worſe minded towards each other, then they were when at firſt they met together. The other cunning device was, of ſome of our Engliſh Sectaries about the yeare 1647. And that was a plot upon a diſpute managed in this manner; ſome of them had provoked a Miniſter (learned enough for his time, but too young to match them in ſubtilty either of caution or of contrivance) to a publick diſpute, which he accepted of: and though he acted his part as well as could be expected of one of his parts and yeares, yet he rather loſt then gained reputation to his cauſe or perſon, becauſe one of their ſide pretending himſelf till then to be of a contrary judgement to theirs, at the cloſe of the diſpute, openly profeſſed his conviction and converſion to their party by the ſatisfaction he had received at that diſputation; whereas it was afterward dicovered that he was a great Zelot to that cauſe and party in former times, which (together with the other particulars fore mentioned) induced me to propoſe unto my Brethren of the Miniſtry of Cheſhire, when they met to ſubſcribe their atteſtation to the Miniſters of London, Jun. 1648. (the penning whereof by their unanimous vote they put upon me) that no Miniſter might make or take up a challenge for a ſet disputation upon any point of Religion, without conſultation and conſent of his Brethren, who ſhould judge
1. Whether it ſhould be disputed on or no; if ſo
62. How the disputation ſhould be ordered, that the truth, and thoſe who are advocates for it, may be clear and ſecured from circumvention and ſlander. The like (upon an eſpeciall occaſion) I moved to my fellow. Miniſters at our meeting at Killingworth in Warwickſhire, and in both (viz. that in Cheſhire, and this in Warwickſhire,) as many as met together (who were a conſiderable number) ſignified their conſent, by ſubſcription to what I propoſed, in theſe words:
At the meeting of the Miniſters at Kenelmworth reſolved and agreed upon; That no Miniſter of this Aſſociation, either offer or undertake any publick Diſputation concerning any point of Religion, but in ſuch a manner, and order, and time, as ſhall be concluded of by the conſent of the brethren of the Society.
Beſides theſe religious conſiderations which moſt concern Miniſters to look unto, there is another, which upon a Civil account belongs moſt to the Magiſtrate, viz. the preſervation of the publick peace, much endangered by a numerous concourſe of people of adverſe principles, for debate of their differences. From which will hardly be ſeparated that peſt of concord, asrrConcordiae peſtis vincendi pertinax libido. Eraſm. Epiſt. praefix. operibus. Hilar. p. 5. (Eraſmus calleth it,) a pertinacious deſire to conquer the adverſary; which may be like to break out into opprobrious words, and from ſuch words it may be to blowes and bloud-ſhed. Therefore S. Paul clearing of himſelf from Tertullus his accuſation, of moving ſedition among all the Iewes throughout the world, Act•q 5. he ſaith v. 12. that his accuſers neither found him in the Temple diſputing with any man, nor raiſing up the people, neither in the Synagogues, nor in the City; implying that diſputation did diſpoſe men to popular7 diſturbance; and with reference to the affinity betwixt the one and the other, the Catholick meeting in a leſſe number then the Donatiſts, (for a publick diſpute) made this advantage of the difference, viz. That if any tumults ſhould ariſe the diſorder could not in reaſon be imputed unto them who were fewer, but to their adverſaries that in number exceeded them. Pauciores catholici q••m Donatiſl•e•e ſi tumultus eſſet minori numero non impataretur Auguſt. Operts breviculi collat. Praefat. Tom. 7. part. 1. p. 686. Though ſometimes there is more danger of commotion from a few turbulent Spirits on the one ſide, then of a multitude of ſober minded Citizens on the other; whereof you had evidence enough at your City Coventry, when thoſe who came as abetters to Mr. Knowles and Mr. K•ff•ns contestation, againſt you and your brother Dr. Grewe, behaved themſelves ſo rudely, that the Committee reſiding there thought it neceſſary to forbid your diſpu•tes, and the City-Magiſtrates denyed the uſe of their Town-Hall for that purpoſe, though they had promiſed it before their coming, when there appeared no ſuch perill of breach of the publick Peace, as after their coming they ſoon perceived. How it came to paſſe, that (notwithſtanding the declared unwillingneſſe of the Committee and Magiſtrates of the City againſt the publick diſpute,) you fitted them with a publick place and polemical entertainment, who came ſo far out of their way, as from London to Coventry to quarrell with you, I ſhall ſhew in a more convenient place: And (to go on with obſervations of like ſort) I very well remember that in London (when Sir, Iohn Gayor was Lord Major) there was a diſputation betwixt Mr. William Ienkins then Preacher at Christ-Church, and Mr. Benjamin Cox, in Mr. I. his houſe, at which I was preſent, being invited by Mr. I. And at the end of that diſpute, there was another reſolved on betwixt Mr. Iames Cranford, and the ſame Mr. Cox, and that within a few dayes after; but before the time concluded on I had occaſion to bring his Lordſhip a lift of ſuch Miniſters as I thought fit to be Preachers at Pauls, as he had requeſted me to do; and then I telling him (the diſcourſe we had inducing me to it) the diſpute between Mr. I. and Mr. Cox, and that I was preſent at it, and that another was intended and concluded betwixt Mr. Cranford and Mr. Cox within a while after; he replyed, that he would have ſuffered neither of them, if he had had timely advertiſement8 of them both; but ſince the one was paſt and could not be recalled, he would ſend his warrant to prevent the other; and that it might be certainly and ſpeedily done, he put me upon it to draw up a form of prohibition of it: which I did, whereupon the parties ſerved with it deſiſted from their purpoſe. There was another diſputation more publickly beſpoken, and as I have heard agreed upon to be betwixt your two, Cov. Antagoniſts, and Mr. Calumy, at his Church in Alderman-bury; but ſuch animoſities of Spirit, and ſymptomes of tumult began to ſtir, and to gather near the time and place of the publick meeting, that there was great cauſe to fear, that how ever it fared with the truth, the common peace would be much endangered, if that concourſe were not hindred; and therefore by the civil Magiſtrates it was forbidden, and as in duty it was requiſite, accordingly forborn.
And I doubt not of Religious Civil Magiſtrates, though their proper office ſerve principally for the preſervation of peace among the common people, but ſome of them have the leſſe liking of diſputes in Religion, becauſe they fear it muſt be prophaned by polemicall conteſtations of ſuch as arellHoc morbi fere innatum eſt hominum ingeiis, ut cedere neſciant. Eraſm. ubi ſuprà too stout to ſtoop to the truth, and ſommEſt hoc pertinaciae pleriſque mortalium ingeniis inſitumut, quod ſemel quocunquecaſu pronunciaverint, nunquam•u••…deſinant, etiamſi compererint perperä pronunciaſſe. Ibid. p. ult. pertinacious in their opinions, as not to recede from what they have pronounced, nay though they ſee their errour, and that they have pronounced amiſſe: and this Eraſmus obſerveth as a diſeaſe and infirmity naturally incident to moſt men. And as the Magiſtrates are publick perſons, if withall they be religious, they cannot think it fit the common intereſt in ſacred and Catholick truths of doctrine and practiſe, ſhould be permitted to private perſons to toſſe to and fro, (as a Ball betwixt two Rackets) in wrangling altercation. This moved the Emperour Marcianus, in ratification of the Conncel of Chalcedon,nnNe cui amplius liceret publicè de fide differere. Baron. Annal an. 452. num. 1. Tom. p. 187. to decree that none ſhould publickly diſpute of matters of Faith;ooClericus fuerit qui, &c. conſortio clericorum mov•a•ur; fi militia praectnctus ſit, cingulo spoliabitur; caeteri ſanct iſſima urbe pellantur. Baron. Ibid. num. 4. col. 688. and he laid a penalty on ſuch as preſumed to act contrary to what he had decreed: as for Clerks, to be put out of the number of the Clergy; for a Souldier, that his helt and ſword ſhall be taken from him; for Citizens, to be expelled the City; and for others, their contumacy was to beppCompetentibus ſuppliciis ſubjugandi. Ibid. ſubdurd with other competent puriſhments.
9There are two great oppoſites to each other, too oppoſite to all diſputations of Religion, the Turke and the Pope; who though their Pride make them ambitious of the higheſt place, the head, their wickedneſſe makes them worthy of the loweſt, the taile, Deut. 28.44.
1. Firſt for the Turk, Mahomet, (that famous impoſtor and falſe Prophet, the founder of that impious and impure Sect of the Mahametans) not onely forbids all diſputes about the Religion of his Bible, (rather Babell) the Alcoran, but inſtructs his deluded diſciples how to anſwer them who are diſpoſed to diſpute:qqTecum diſputare volentibus dic, Deum ſo••…omnes tuo; actus agnoſcere, qui die poſtremo lites omnes & contrarietates diſcutiet. Alcaroni. c. 32. Say unto them, (ſaith he) God alone knowes all thy acts, and at the laſt day will diſcuſſe all controverſies and contrarieties. Again,rHomines incredulos taliter alloquere; ego quidem legem veſtram minime ſequor, nec vos meam; igitur mihi mea maneat, vobiſqueveſtra. Ibid. c. 109. to incredulous men ſay thus, I follow not your Law nor you mine; therefore let me alone with that which is mine, and I will let you alone with yours.
2. For theſſNobis nullum fas eſt inire certamen cum hominibus communionis alienae; divina ſcriptura praedicante homine haereticum poſt primam & ſecundam correptionem de vita. Tom. 3. Concil. p. 625. Col. 2. edit. Bin. 1636. Pope Gelaſius decreed againſt diſputation with thoſe who are of another Communion; for which he pretends the authority of the Apoſtle Paul, A man that is an Heretick after the firſt and ſecond admonition reject. Titus 3. v. 10. tQuaeritur anliceat clericis de fide Catholica diſputare publicè. Neg. Azor. Inſtir. Moral. l 8. c. 26. 1 part. p. 569. Azorius the Jeſuit in his morall inſtitutions putteth this queſtion, whether it be lawfull for Clerks to dispute publickly of the Catholick Faith? And he anſwereth negatively, and quotes for it A decree of the Trinity and Catholick Faith: and for lay perſons the Popes prohibition is expreſſe and peremptory,uInhibemus ne cuiquam Laitae perſonae liceat de fide Catholica dispatare. Sext. decretal. l. 5. Tit. 2. de Haereticis. we inhibit (as unlawfull for) any lay-man publickly to diſpute of the Catholick Faith. And if there bewAzorius Ibid. p. 571. Col. 1. any diſputes of matters of Faith, betwixt Catholicks and Hereticks publiſhed in any Mother-Tongue, they are forbidden in their Index of prohibited books.
Qu. But did not Bellarmine read his controverſies or diſputations of the difference between the Popiſh and Proteſtant Religion, at Rome? and (amongſt other queſtions) did he not10 diſcuſſe the capitall queſtions, of the Popes ſupremacy and in-infallibility, as well as others of inferiour titles?
Anſ. He did ſo, and becauſe he ſtood up as a Champion, for the Antichriſtian Creed and Church, he was allowed to do ſo, eſpecially there where his hearers were wilfully fortified againſt the true faith: But ſo little is any diſputation liked by thoſe who are moſt Popiſh, that as a very wife and obſervant Traveller informeth us, (in his judicious Book called Europae speculum, or a view or ſurvey of the ſtate of Religion in the Weſtern parts of the world;) that hexxSir Edw. Sand. Europae. ſpeculum, p. 121, 122. ſought for the controverſies of Card. Bellarm. in verity in all places; but neither that, nor Gregorie de Valentia, nor other Popiſh School-men, nor any of that quality could be ever in any ſhop of Italy ſet eye upon: which made me (ſaith he) entertain this ſuſpicious conjecture, that no part of the Proteſtants poſitions and allegations ſhould be known; they were ſo exact as to make diſcurrent (in ſome ſort) even thoſe very books which were constrained to cite them, that they might refute them; in ſuch wiſe as not to ſuffer them to be commonly ſaleable, but onely to ſuch, and in ſuch places as the Superiours ſhould think meet. And it is not an improbable opinion of ſome, that Bellarmines diſpatations are the leſſe pleaſing to the Pope and his deareſt favourites, becauſe he citeth our Authors too fully, and ſetteth on their arguments further then his anſwers reach to take them off. And for the point in hand, diſputation is the moſt cryed down in Italy, the Popes Country, above other places: for as the ſame prudent Author obſervethyyIbid. p. 117. as in the foundation of the reformation (which is the Scripture) ſo much more in the edifice it ſelf, the Doctrines and Opinions of the reformed Churches, they bear away all ſound and Eccho of them, being not lawfull there to alledge them, no not to glance at them, not to argue nor diſpute of them, no not to refute them: he goeth on; In ordinary communication (ſaith he) to talk of matters of religion is odious and ſuſpicious; but to enter into any reaſoning, (though but for argument ſake, without any other ſcandall) is prohibited and dangerous: yea it was once my fortune (ſaith he) to be half threatned for none other fault then for debating with a Jew, and upholding the truth of Chriſtianity against him; ſo unlawfull there are all diſputes of Religion whatſoever, &c. Ibid.I believe him there in the rather, becauſe11zzAzor. Inſtitut. part. 1. l. 8. c. 26. p 571. col. 2. Azorius confeſſeth, they are ſo jealous of all diſputations, as that they will not allow of a confutation of the Alcora n in any Mother-Tongue: Not that they care either for the Jewiſh or Turkiſh Religion, but that if they muſt be ſo much ſecured from common contradiction, much more muſt that which they call Roman Catholick, eſpecially for thoſe points which concern his Holineſſe indiſputable and all diſputative priviledges, to whom Papall Paraſites appropriate that of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 2.14. The spirituall man judgeth all things, yet he himſelf is judged of no man: But, the cauſe common to them both (why the Turkiſh and Popiſh Religion are ſo tender over their Tet•ets, that they may not be touched by diſpute) is, for that they are like the apples of Sodom, which how fair ſoever they ſeem to the eye, if they be handled they fall unto aſhes and ſmoke,aaJoſeph. of the wars of the Jewes, l. 5. c. 5. fine capitis. as Joſephus recordeth, becauſe they have no ſolidity of truth that can endure the triall.
Having ſhewed in the precedent diſcourſe how averſe many have been from diſputations in Religion; why and how far and how adverſe the Mahometans and Papiſts are unto them; I will adde but one obſervation more under this Title of Diſputations in Religion concerning the Pope and his party of this generation, who (beſides the reaſon wherein by their diſlike of them, they agree with the Turks (which is a part of their Turco papiſmus, as Dr. Sutlive hath entitled a book againſt them) are vehemently bent againſt them (where their power is moſt predominant) out of pride and diſdain of all Religions but their own, eſpecially of the Proteſtants, becauſe they have done them the moſt diſhonour and damage; and becauſe by the domineering decrees of the Councell of Trent, and by the Tyrannicall authority of the Inquiſition, they are better able to oppoſe them, then by Diſputations and Arguments from Scripture or reaſons; and for this reaſon among others is the Popiſh““Pope Paul the fourth ſaid it was the principall ſecret and Myſtery of the papacy. Hiſt. of the Council of Trent lib. 4. p. 405. and the true Ram to bear down hereſie and defend the Apoſtolick Sea. Ibid. p. 409. rather then“The very name of the Inquiſition is terrible all Chriſtendome over, and the King of Spain with his Grandees tremble at it. Howels famil. Letters. Vol. 1. Let. 44 p. 236. Spaniſh inquiſition, though ſet up principally againſt the Iewes and Moores, carryed on ſo cunningly and cruelly againſt the Proteſtants, that the Biſhops and other12 of the Popiſh Clergy might not be put to too much paines in arguing with them; as it was ſaid by ſome who wrote againſt the Engliſh Biſhops, for preſſing ceremoniall conformity with too much rigour;bbSo in the beginning of a Dialogue betwixt Diotrephes a Biſhop, Tertullus a Papiſt, Pandocheus an In-keeper, and Paul a Preacher of the word of God. that the clink and the Gate-houſe (two common Gaoles) were the ſtrongeſt Arguments they had to maintain their cauſe; but they were as houſes with paper walls in compariſon of the Priſons of the Pope-holy inquiſition, as, thecSee the Spaniſh Hiſtory l. 28. p. 1031, and à p. 1119. à. 1123. and 1134, 1135. Spaniſh Hiſtory, beſides other writers, have reported it.
IN the precedent chapter we have ſhewed how averſe from, or adverſe to diſputations in matters of Religion, ſome have been, how far, and for what reaſons: There are others (of another mind) ſo diverſe from them, or contrary to them, that their difference maketh a juſter ground of diſpute then diverſe others which are drawn out into many and long debates. There have been and are ſome men (to pretermit with contempt that daring Bedlamite““Theaura John taking upon him to be high Prieſt of the Jewes, ſet up a challenge to both the Univerſities of Oxford & Cambr. and proclaimed it with a three-fold O yes to anſwer his printed Dotages in Pauls-Church. April. 5. 1652. Theaura Iohn) who having an high opinion of their own good parts for knowledge and utterance, think their eminence cannot be ſufficiently known, nor they enough admired and honoured without publick oftenſion, I might ſay oſtentation, of it in a polemicall concertation. This was the humour13 ofddLeontinus Gorgius primus auſus eſt in conventu poſcere quaeſtionem, id eſt, jubere dacere quadere quis velit audere; audax negotium dicerem & impudent, niſi, &c. Cicer. de finibus bonor. & malor. l. 2. princip. libri. Gorgius Leontinus, of whom the Roman orator noteth, that he was the firſt that took upon him to demand a queſtion, that is, to aske the people what queſtion they deſired to be diſputed, and they ſhould preſently heare him diſpute and diſcourſe of it. A bold buſineſſe, ſaith the orator, I would ſay an impudent too, but our later Philoſophers have taken example by him for the like undertaking. And if not by imitation of heathen Philoſophers, yet by naturall corruption have divers Chriſtian profeſſors been puffed up to the like degree of vain glory; being proud of thoſe preeminences for which by the Apoſtles admonition and caution they ſhould have been rather humble and thankfull: for he would have none to be puffed up againſt another for any abilities they have and others have not, 1. Cor. 4.6. and he pathetically expoſtulateth with ſuch as think too well of themſelves, and diſdain others: who maketh thee to differ from another (ſaith he,) and what haſt thou that thou didſt not receive? now if thou didſt receive it, why boaſtest thou as if thou hadſt not received it? v. 7. that is, as if it were thine own of thy ſelf, without being beholding to another, eſpecially to God, who might have made him whom thou contemneſt glorious, and thee contemptible. It is probable that Iohn Picus Earle of Marandula (ſo much admired for wit and learning, as that he is ſtiled,eeTheologorum & philoſopho••…ſine controverſia principis ſic in titularipag. operum cudit. Baſil. quam Sebaſt cam. Henric Petriann. 1519. without controverſie, the Prince of Divines and Philoſophers) might be lifted up with appreheaſion of his own excellent endowments, and the applauſe of men when he put forth a kind of challenge to the Chriſtian world, to disputeffNengentas de divinis & naturalibus quaeſtiones propoſui, ad quas in publico doctiſſimorum hominum conſeſſu eſſem responſurus. John Pici Mirand. Apol. Tom. 1. operum p. 76. upon 900. The ologicall and Philoſophicall queſtions at Rome, and in any of them to be ready to be reſpondent to any opponent: wherein though ſome commended his ſtudiouſneſſe of good arts, yet did his offer givegObtrectatorum turba multiplex aſſurrexit. Nonnulli me audacem dicere & temerarium, qui hac aetate, quartum ſcilicet & vigeſimum nondum natus annum, de altiſſimis Philoſophiae locis, de emnibus Chriſtianae Theologiae myſteriis, &c. Ibid. p. 1677. great offence unto many that accounted him an audacious and temerarious young man, who (not yet fully of age of 24 yeares) durſt propoſe a diſputation, of the profound points of Philoſophy, of the ſublime myſteries of Chriſtian Theology, of unknown arts and diſciplines in ſo famous a City, and ſo ample and numerous an aſſembly of learned men. And much more oppoſition14 and reproch he met withall: for his (at leaſt) ſuppoſed preſumption,hhCum nuper Romam veniſſem, pedes ſūmi pontificis Innocentii ectavi, cui ab innocentia vitae nomen, meritiſſimè de more oſculaturus. Ibid. princip. Alpo. p. 76. which gave them juſt occaſion to ſuſpect, (though he were ſo ſuperſtitionſly humble as to come to Rome to kiſſe the Popes foot) and ſeemingly ſo religiouſly lowly as to ſhew himſelf ſeriouſly affected with the fore-cited ſaying of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 4.7.iiQuid habemus quod noſtrum ſit? nonne cuncta quae in nobis ſunt Dei ſunt? quid ergo oporter ſe extollere magni facere oſtentare? glorietur qui gloriatur in Domino &c. John Pic. Mirand. Tom. 2. de ſtudio divinae & humanae Philoſoph. l. 2. c. 6. p. 25. what have we (ſaith he) that is ours? are not all things that are in us the things of God? why then ſhould any one extoll, magnifie, or boast himſelf of any thing he hath? but let him that glorieth, glory in the Lord, ſince all good things are his and by his infinite grace and goodneſſe beſtowed upon us. Whether he thought ſeriouſly of this, when he made his challenge forementioned, we cannot determine, nor will we conjecture: But there are ſome, of whoſe forwardneſſe to diſpute we can have no good conceit, as of Felix the Manichean Heretick, who provoked Auguſtine (the renowned Biſhop of Hippo) to publick diſpute; whereto he was ſo unprepared, that it was a doubt to him that publiſhed the report of what paſſed betwixt them,kNeſcio quid potiſſimum admirer, Feliciſne impudentiam qui provocavit ad publicam diſputationem, ad quam adeo non fuit inſtructus ut vix aſinus potuit inſulſius argumentari; an populi tolerantiam; an Auguſtini ſtomachum invincibilem; qui tam•indoctis ineptiis tam diu tanta lenitate reſponderit: ſic in Praefat. ad lect or de art. cum Felici Manichae. poſt finem lib. 2. Tom. 6. p. 651. operum Auguſtin. whether were more to be admired, the impudence of Felix braying, rather then disputing; or the patience of the people, hearing his abſurd arguings without tumult; or the invincible ſtomach of Auguſtine, who with ſuch lenity continued ſo long to anſwer his unlearned follies. Of this over-eager affection to diſſenting altercation, we find many examples among the Romaniſts, as Iohn Eccius (whomlJohannes Eckius vel Eccius catholicae ſidei adverſus Lutherum ac reliquos haereticos propugnatur inſignis Antipoſſevinus Appa. Sacri. Tom. 1. p. 871. Poſſevine commends for a notable Champion againſt Luther and other Hereticks, who when a diſputation was appointed at Ratiſhon, ann. 1541. betwixt Iulius Pilugius, Iohannes Gropperus, and himſelf for the popiſh party, and Philip Melancthon, Martin Bucer, and Iohn Piſtorius, for the Proteſtants,mIlli verecundèſe excuſant, & ut alii magis idonei conſtituantur petunt omnes praeter Eccium, is enim paratü ſe diccbat & inſtructū. Sleidan. Cōment. l. 13. p. 279. all but Eccius, modeſtly deſired to be excuſed, and intreated that others more fit might be appointed to diſcuſſe the points in difference betwixt them;15 but he ſaid he was ready prepared for the purpoſe, yet it was to little purpoſe; for though he were ſo hot upon the matter, God took him off with another heart fornnAliquanto poſt in febrim incidit, it a quidem ut intereſſe non poſſet. Sleid. Ibid. 14. princip. lib. p. 281. he ſeized on him with a feaver, and thereby ſerved him with a prohibition, that he could not be preſent; of him it is to be noted that though he were ſo forward to diſpute, he wrote one diſcourſe againſt diſputing with Hereticks, andooSee Poſſevinus ubi ſuprà. another that Hereticks were to be burned: which ſheweth that he would not have their minds enligthned with inſtruction, but their bodies inflamed to deſtruction by burning faggots reared round about them. Iohn Cochlens his mate in malignity to Proteſtant truths, was ſo vehemently and confidently bent, (by diſputation) to oppoſe ſuch as profeſſed themſelves Proteſtants, that he offered himſelf to diſpute with any Lutheran, upon perill to loſe his life if he failed in his proofs; but his confidence is the leſſe, to be regarded, becauſe as he perſecuted truth;ppEccius commentar. rerum inde geſtarum ann. 1531. p. 271. under the name of Hereſie ſo he publiſhed Hereſy under the title of truth for he was the firſt that ſet forth the workes of Iohannes MaxentinsqqCochleus opera Johannis Maxentii ſub. nomine orthodoxi patris primus edidit. Tom. 4. Biblioth Patr. p. 433. as an orthodox father whom ſome of his own ſide, (more learned then himſelf, as Margarinus Dola Bigne) have ſince dicovered to be anrrOpera Maxentii cautiſſimè legenda, nec illis fidendum, cùm lateat Eutychianae haereſeos venenum. Ib. &c. p. 445. Entychian Heretick, as the reader may ſee in the fourth tome of Bibliotheca Patrum: the Eutychian hereſie acknowledged but one nature in Chriſt, and that was the divine, andsAlphonſus de caſtro adverſus haereſes lib. 4. titulo de Chriſti haereſ. 4 col. 4278. held that our bodies at the reſurrection ſhall be more ſubtill then the wind, ſo that they ſhall neither be ſeen nor felt. After Eccius and Cochleus was ſet up the ſect of the Ieſuits, which ſome place upon the yeartIbid. l. 13. titulo de reſurrectione, haereſ. 2. col. 906. 1530. ſome inuBuccalzer. Jud. Chronol. p. 534. 1540. Among them none ever ſet a bolder face upon ſo bad a cauſe as thewLudov. Lucius Hiſt. Jeſuit, c. 1. p. 1. Ieſuit Edmund Campian did; who made a thraſonicall challenge to diſpute with the Ʋniverſities of England, reducing the reaſons of his diſpute to ten heads, which Poſſevine (a fiery-ſpirited Ieſuit, for the good liking he hath of them, and fearing (in time) ſo ſmall a book as they made might be loſt, incorporated into his“See Poſſevinus Bibliotheca ſelect. part. p. 309. ad 324. firſt part of his Bibliotheca Selecta. In theſe reaſons of his offer, he16 ſeemes cum ratione inſanire, to be mad with ſuch a miſtake atheirs who think they have reaſon, when they kill Chriſts ſervants, to think they do him ſervice, John 16.2.
His confident expreſſions in his cauſe, argue either a ſtrange impoſture of a deluding ſpirit, or a braſen impudence of a bragging Jeſuit,xxSi hoc praeſtitero, coelos eſſe. Sanctoseſſe, fidem eſſe, Chriſtum eſſe, cauſam obtinui. Camp. in Epiſt. Academicis Oxonii florentibus. Ib. 320. If I do make good (ſaith he) that there is an Heaven, that there be Saints, that there is faith, that there is a Ghriſt; I have won the victory. yyPatres ſi quando licebit accedere, confectum eſt praelium; tam ſunt noſtri quàm Gregorius ipſe 13. filiorum Eccleſiae pater amantiſſimus•Ibid. ratione 5. p. 315.If we come to try our differences by the fathers, the war is at an end; they are as certainly ours as Pope Gregorie the thirteenth, a moſt loving Father of the Children of the Church: But when he was diſputed within the Tower, ann. 1581. he that was ſo loud and vigorous in his challenge, was ſo low and feeble in performance, that it gave them cauſe to conceive who had well obſerved them both,zzSee Alex. Nowell and Will: Dayes Preface before the diſpute printed ann. 1583. that the book was none of his which was publiſhed in his name; howſoever he that reads his challenge, and the true relations of the diſpute or conference fore-mentioned, will find that his rhetorick was more plauſible in the one, then his logick powerfull in the other; ſo that we can neither ſay (according to Sampſons riddle) out of the ſtrong came ſweetneſſe, Judges 14.14. Nor out of the ſweetneſſe came ſtrength. For it was his weakneſſe of judgement to take ſo great a burden on him as he was nor able to bear, and the weakneſſe of his cauſe and judgment both, which ſuffered it to ſink when he took it into protection, and undertook to ſupport it againſt ſo many vigorous Aſſailants as he provoked to oppoſe it; when one learned man was able to turn that counterfeit Divine into a meer Thraſo, his reaſons into bubbles, his threats into trifles and vapours of vaniſhing ſmoke;““Campianum ita fregit Whitakerus, ut omnes ſanae mentis facile viderent ementitum Theologum in verum Thraſonem, rationes in ampullas, deniqueomnes minas in meras nugas & fumum leviſſimum evanuiſſe. Melch. Adamus in vita Whitakeri part. poſter. p. 169. as Melchior Adamus very fitly ſetteth forth his folly and foile.
There have been ſome women who have ſo much forgotten the frailty and modeſty of their ſex, as to make chattings to learned men for diſputation in matters of Religion; of this there is a memorable ſtory, but how true it is I cannot tell, becauſe17 cauſe I have it but upon the report ofaaParſons in the Preface to his report of 10. diſp. p. 29, 30. added to the third part of his treatiſe intituled the 3 converſions of England. a Ieſuit, (who howſoever moſt highly honoured by his ſect, is for his manybbSee the glorious Elogium of Robert Parſons in Capitall Letters in. Philip. Alagamb. Bibliotheca. Societat. Jeſu p. 414. falſities, and ſome forgeries, of little credit among the Proteſtants,) which is this: In the year of Chriſt 403. Acertain wilfull woman, of the City of Antioch, named Julia, infected with the abominable hereſie of the Manichees, and fervent therein, came to the City of Gaza, whereof Saint Porphyrius, an holy learned man, was Biſhop; and beginning there to pervert Chriſtians, and being reprehended for it by the Biſhop, ſhe challenged him to an open diſputation, which the good man admitted, ſhe behaved her ſelf ſo inſolently as was intolerable: what the iſſue and effect was, is to be obſerved under another title. Another example I had occaſion to note in a letter to a worthy Lady, of a woman for her learning above moſt of her ſort, or ſex, her name was Argala, a Proteſtant, of whomccGretzer. Tom. 1. defenſ. Bellarm. lib. 2. c. 51. Col. 833, 834. Gretzer the Jeſuit reports that ſhe ſent a challenge to Eckius, (of whom we have ſpoken before) to diſpute with him, who not ſo patient as the Biſhop forementioned, ſent her a diſtaſſe and spindle, to put her upon employment more proper to her Sex. It had been more to her commendation, if ſhe had been as learned as the noble Virgin Anna Maria a Schur-man, to have been as modeſt and ſilent as ſhe was, who needed theddImmortale virginū decus, cùm nihil natura tibi denegaverit, ac omnia detulerit eruditio, videris tamen latere velle, & comitem rectè factorum gloriam repudiare: totnè linguas calles, ut ſileas? totnè diſciplinis generoſum iſtum inſtruxiſti animū, ut unitas agiter inglorius artes? 2. Sic Joh. Beverovicius Epiſt. ad illam p. 5. illius libri edit. 1641. Lugd. Batav. urgent perſwaſions of learned men, to let her learning be known for the benefit of others: and thougheQuod tibi nunc offertur ſpecimen faeliciſſimi ingenii virginis quae patem non habet, exiguum eſt ſi cum iis quae effecta habet & parata, comparetur: ſed pro ea qua eſt modeſtia, &c. Ibid. p. 7. ſhe have written much, worthy to be committed to publick view; yet ſuch was her modeſty, that not without much importunity, that little which is printed was extorted from her, which had not been obtained of her but that ſome had anticipated her conſent by precedent publication. I can find but few ſuch examples to commend to the imitation of women; and I need not bring more of ſuch extravagants from Chriſtian moderation, and female modeſty, as ſome fore-noted; ſince our age hath afforded many hereticall viragoes, who have dared to ſet upon Preachers in their pulpits on the Sabbath day, in full Congregations; taking upon them not onely to be opponents of their Doctrine, but to be judges both of it18 and them, which offices they uſurped with a kind of papall preſumption, as if they were guided in what they did by an infallible ſpirit; and ſome have not been aſhamed to put others to bluſh for their impudence, and theſe of both Sexes, as well Evites, as Adamites: but that which at preſent we have in purſuit and proſecution, is that intemperate humour of diſputing, of which a wiſe and learned States-man ſaid,ffPruritus diſputandi eſt ſcabies Eccleſiae. Sir Henr. Wootton, Warden of Eaton college. the itch of diſpute is the ſcab of the Church: Which he might happily take from Ludovicus Vives, who hath an expreſſion of neare affinity, or rather conſangunity unto it; As thoſeggQuemadmodum qui pruritus tic•…latione acti, nimium ſcabentes ſanguinem eliciunt, & dolor ſuccedit in locum ſuavitatis; ita iſtidum nimium ſcalpunt veritatem, &c. Ludovic. Vives de cauſis corruptar. artium l. 3. p. 127. (ſaith he) who are acted by the tickling of itch, do ſcratch too much and draw bloud, (whence there ſuccedeth ſoreneſſe for ſweetneſſe, pain for pleaſure:) So thoſe who ſcratch the truth too much by diſputation, wound it, and leave it in a condition of a neceſſity for ſome other meanes to cure and heale it.
Queſt. But are not the Proteſtants much commended by ahhSir Edw. Sands Europae Speculum. p. 85. judicious writer, for their offers of diſputation to their adverſaries in all place? For their iterated and importuned ſuits for publick audience and judgement? and is it not obſerved by him, for matter of advantage to the Proteſtant proceedings, as a thing which greatly aſſured the multitude of their ſoundneſſe, whom they ſaw ſo confident in abiding the hazard of publick triall? they standing in like termes as a ſubſtantiall juſt man, and a facing ſhifter; whereof the ones credit is greateſt there where he is beſt known, and the others where he is least.
Anſ. Whereto I anſwer, that when Luther and others made revolt from the Romiſh Religion, the Romaniſts were moſt groſſe in doctrine, moſt looſe in practiſe, (eſpecially the Prelates and the ruling Clergy) moſt injurious to the right and liberty of the people (both as men and as Chriſtians;) for which they were juſtly made odious to them which had a true reliſh of Religion or morall honeſty. All theſe particulars I could undeniably demonſtrate if there were need, and this place were fit for ſuch a proof as the charge will require: Therefore
It was the prudence of the Proteſtants, not their intemperance or diſtemper, to deſire diſputation in thoſe times; becauſe then as they had more juſt cauſe to oppoſe the Romaniſts, ſo had the Romaniſts leſſe ability to defend themſelves:19 for, as that worthy Gentleman welliiIbid. obſerveth, they were not ſo cunning then in the queſtions, nor ſo ready in their evaſions, as now they are grown: ſo that (as he ſaith) the effect of their offers, (whether received or refuſed) was in moſt places ſuch, as to draw with them an immediate alteration in Religion; and he medneth it by turning frrm the Popiſh to that which is Proteſtant. This doubt cleared, I ſhall returne to my diſcourſe of the diſputing diſcaſe, whereto as ſome have it thing cares, (as the Apoſtle ſaith, 2 Tim. 4.3. ) ſo ſome have itching tongues; ſome itching fingers and pens. Such are thoſe diſputing Papiſts, who are commonly called School-men; of whom (though Peter Lombard Biſhop of Paris, was the founder, father or maſter, (and well he deſerved that title, ſaithkkCollegit ſententias ſacrorū theologorum, & magiſter ſententiarum & ſacrorum theologorum dici meruit. Bellarm. de Eccleſ. Script. ad ann. 1145. p. 322. Bellarmine;) yet his Scholars and followers, (eſpecially Aquinas, and Scotus, with their Scholaſtick Commentators) have multiplied the number of needleſſe queſtions, far beyond the limits of ſober, reaſonable and religious inquiries. I will ſet down ſome of them, and thoſe ſo many as may ſerve to make good my charge; (not omitting others as occaſion ſhall induce me to mention them, though not of their tribe.) Beginning with Aquinas,llAquinas primpart. vol. prim. q. 6. ar. 1. and taking more out of him then any other Queſtioniſt, becauſe he is a Canonized Saint of the Romiſh Church, and in their Schooles and Bookes commonly ſtyled the Angelicall Doctor.
His queſtions are, 1. Of God. 2. Of. Chriſt. 3. Of Angels. 4. Of Men.
llAquinas primpart. vol. prim. q. 6. ar. 1.1. Whether it be agreeable to God to be good.
mmIb. q. 14 ar. 2.2. Whether God underſtand himſelf.
nnIb. q. 19. ar. 1.3. Whether there be a will in God.
ooIb. q. 21. ar. 1.4. Whether there be juſtice in God.
ppIb. q. 25. ar. 1.5. Whether there be power in God.
qqApud Ludov. Viv. in Aug. l. 18. c. 16.6. Whether he can give power to a Crastore to create.
rrAquinas ad. 2d. vol. prim. par. q. 44. ar 4.7. Whether it were convenient that God ſhould require to be beloved with all the heart.
ss2d. 2d. vo 2. q. 90. ar. 1.8. Whether God be to be praiſed with the mouth:
2. Of Christ, he hath ſome vain queſtions, but becauſe other Papiſts have far worſe, I will mention theirs rather then his. Firſt, it is a very vain and fond queſtion.ttOrat. Dan. Cromeri. oppoſ. Bellarmino. p. 170, 171. which Cromerus noteth, viz: Whether Chriſt were of the order of the Dominicans,20 or Franciſcans. But they are worſe then vain, for they are vile; worſe then fond, for they are mad: which Eraſmus hath collected, I will ſet them down in his Language; for they are moſt of them ſo profane and blaſphemous, that I am loth to deliver them in any other: and therefore I will ſet them down as I find them in that Author, ſo much the more worthy of credit, becauſe by three Popes,uuLeo Pontifex maximus dilecto filio. Eraſmo. Eraſ. Epiſt. l. 1. p. 49. idem l. 2. p. 72. Upon which the note of the index expurg. is, paternis viſceribus pius pater nutantem oviculam blandis encomiis allicere conatur. p. 237. col. 2. Leo the tenth,wwEpiſt. l. 23. p. 864. 865. Adrian the ſixth, andxPaulus P. 3. Deſid. Eraſm. Rot. Sacr. Theolog. profeſſ. diſect. fil. &c. Epiſt. lib. 27. p. 1095. Paul the third, he was acknowledged for a Son of thoſe Ghoſtly Fathers by their Letters written to him, two by Pope Leo, by Pope Adrian two, and by Pope Paul one; in all which he is not only kindly accepted, but highly commended by them. In hisyy1 Num ſint plures in Chriſto filiationes. 2 Num poſſibilis ſit propoſitio, Deus odit filium. 3 Num Deus potuerit ſuppoſitare mulierem. 4 Num Diabolum. 5 Num allnum. 6 Num Cucurbitam. 7 Num ſilicem. This is ſomewhat like that of Ludovic. Vives, An Deus poſſet ſuppoſitare hanc pennā qua ſcribo. Plut. in com. in libro. Aug. de c. 13.8 Tum quemadmodum ſi cucurbita eſſet concionatura. 9 Num editura miracula. 10 Num figenda cruci. Hac apud Eraſm. Moriae Encom. Quid ſit ſuppoſitum & ſuppoſitare in divinis, vid. Suarez. disp. Tom. 1. p. 150. diſp. 11. Moriae Encomium he rehearſeth ten, whereof the firſt is fooliſh, the reſt blaſphemous, as the learned Reader may ſee, though but in a marginall obſervation: for I had rather ſet them down on the leſt hand, covered with a Latine mask, then to place them bare-faced, for the readieſt view of an ordinary Reader.
To ſuch queſtions may pertinently be applied the cenſure of Nazianzen, they are ſo wretchedly affectedzzGreg. Naz. vol. 1. orat. 33. p. 431. (ſaith he) that they make it their delight to make trifling diſputes of divine matters, and are as preſumptuous many times in reſolving of curious queſtions, as raſh in propoſing them to the triall of diſputation;aaIdem. Orat. 35. p. 561. whoſe precipitation and temerity he thinketh very fit to be bridled and reſtrained.
3. Of Angels, Aquinas inquiresbbAquin. prim. part. vol. 2. q. 56. ar. 1. whether they know themſelves.
2. Whether their knowledge be matutine and veſpertine; which he takes occaſion to diſpute from the expreſſion ofccAug. Super Geneſ. ad lit. l. 2. c. 8. Anguſtine.
3. ddAquin. prim. part. vol. 3. 2. q. 60. ar. 3.Whether Angels love themſelves with a naturall or an elective dilection.
4. eeIb. q. 63. ar. 9.Whether as many remained in the ſtate of grace as fell from it.
215. ffIb. q. 117. ar. 2.Whether men can teach Angels.
1. Of man, whether the rib of which Eve, was made were one of Adams neceſſary ribs, or one ſuperfluous: this is the queſtion ofggPeter. ſuper Geneſin. c. 2. q. 6. p. 159. Pererius a learned Jeſuit, which by his own confeſſion is by one of his own centured for a ſuperfluous queſtions
hhIbid. Tom. 1. lib. 4. q. 2. p. 166 Quomodo ſtatu innocentiae faeminae generati poſſunt &c. Ib. q. 3. c. 2. An in ſtatu innocentiae integritas faeminei genitali s commixtione viri, &c. Ib. q. 4. col. 1.2. Whether in the ſtate of innocency, the number of males and females ſhould have been equall.
To theſe two we may adde two more out of the ſame Jeſuit; but becauſe they are not ſo modeſt as the former, I had rather make a marginall note of them, in the Latine words of the Author, then expreſſe any part of them in my Engliſh text: yet be would ſeem very baſhfull to the Popiſh Biſhop Abulenſis Toſtatus, who diſcuſſeth ſo obſcene a queſtion about circumciſion, that he cannot for ſhame make mention of it, and therefore thinketh it beſt to paſſe it over in ſilence; and ſo do I: there are many of that ſort in Sanchez his great bellied book de mat•imonio, which maketh good the words ofkkDe delectatione praeputiatorum, &c. Ita pudenda eſt illius oratio & diſputatio, ut praeſter ca ſilentio praeteriri. Perer. in Geneſ. 17. diſp. 2. p. 596. v. 1. Cū coelibatum profiteantur, nimis•e muliebrium rerum peritos teſtantur. Pareus in Gen. 19. v. 33. Pareus, of the badneſſe of ſuch as pretending to live chaſtly ſingle ſhew themſelves by their diſcourſes too well acquainted with womens matters.
Of mans death and reſurrection there are moved many diſputes, as idle and audacious as the reſt: there is one Bartholomew Sybilla hath written a whole book of ſtrange queſtions, among whichllBarth. Sybilla ſpecul. peregrin quaeſt. decad. 1. c. 2. q. 7. p. 5455. one of the paſſage of the ſoul out of the body, whether it go on the right hand or the left; whether forward or backward.
Of the reſurrection Aquinas hath many vaine queries; asmmAquin. ſupplem. tertiae part. q. 81. ar. 3 c. whether all ſhall ariſe in the male Sex, andnnIb. q. 8. ar. 2. whether the haires and nailes ſhall riſe up with the body; with many others of like ſort, which I paſſe over becauſe I would leave roome for others of another kind, which manifeſt the Papiſts to be the greateſt doters upon impertinent and unprofitable queſtions, and the boldeſt determiners of doubtfull things, that are. This appeareth not onely by their diſputes and queſtions, ſuch as I22 have obſerved already; but by their reſolution of many doubts (as they pretend) by divine revelation; which may beſt be delivered by way of queſtion and anſwer, (as in form of a Catechiſme) divers of which are ſet down in two ſuch Papiſts books, as uſually ſupplied matter to their Prieſts for Sermons to the people; of which the one is the big book of the lives of the Saints, called by themſelves the Golden Legend: though by by thoſe who have read it with indifferency, the lying legend, made by Jacobus de Voragine, as he is ordinarily termed (but asccPoſſe. Apparat. Sacr. vol. 1. p. 794. Poſſevine corrects the name, Iacob de Varagine, Archbiſhop of Geneva) his book was printed at Venice, ann. 1575. The other book is a book of ſelected Sermons, printed by Iames Kavinell, for the uſe of ſimple Prieſts who want cunning to preach: So in the title of the book, the time and place of the firſt publication of it I find not noted. This premiſed, I will begin the queſtions out of their former book of lies with the author of lies the Devil.
Quest. 1. What is the proper likeneſſe of the Devil? ddLeg. aur. fol. 244. p. 1. col. 2.He is like an Ethiopian, more black then thunder, his face ſharpe, his beard long, his haires hanging unto his feet, his eyes flaming as hot as fire, caſting out ſparkles of fire, and out of his mouth come flames of ſulphur; his hands bound with chaines of fire behind his back.
Queſt. 2. When the Devil had tempted Adam and Eve, or Adam by Eve, to eat the forbidden fruit, what penance did they undergoe, (after they had yielded to the Devil) and were expelled out of Paradiſe?
eeThebook of ſelected Sermons printed by James Kavinell Dominic. Sep. mageſ. fol. 8. p. 1. col. 2.Anſ. For many yeares before their death they ſtood either of them in water a night up to the chin, (far from one another) till their fleſh was as green as graſſe.
But we muſt make a long leap into the new Teſtament, elſe we ſhall ſtay too long, and make our queſtions too many.
Queſt. 3. Why was Peter bidden to put up his ſword when he drew it in our Saviours defence?
ffMenot, Serm. fol. 47. col. 4.Becauſe he had nor cunning enough to uſe it; for he cut off Malchus his care when he ſhould have cut off his head.
Queſt. 4. How many thornes were in the Crown that was ſet upon the head of Chriſt?
ggApol. for Herodot. l. 1. c. 35. p. 274. out of Bonaventure, Lyra & Maylard.Juſt a thouſand.
23Queſt. 5. How many wounds had the body of our Saviour in the whole?
Anſ. hhpa. 14. of the office of the Virgin, printed at Paris. ann. 1524.Five thouſand four hundred and ſixty.
Queſt. 6. What were the theeves names that were cruicified with Chriſt?
Anſ. iiLeg. aur. fol. 16. p. 1. col. 2.Dyſmas the name of him that was ſaved, and Geſmas the name of him that was damned.
Queſt. 7. Why was Dyſmas ſaved rather then Geſmas?
Anſ. kkA Franciſcan of Bourdeaux Apol. for Herodot. l. 1. c. 33. p. 260.Becauſe he would not ſuffer his fellowes to rob Chriſt when he fled into Egypt.
Queſt. 8. How know you that S. Thomas Becket (whoſe ſalvation hath beenllSee Speeds Chron. l. 9. c. 6. p. 510. col. 2. 43. called in queſtion, even among our own ca. becauſe of his contumacy againſt his King) was ſaved?
Anſ. AmmLeg. aur. fol. 180. p. 2. col. 1. young man died and raiſed by miracle, ſaid, there was in heaven a void ſeat; and asking whoſe it was, anſwer was made, that it was kept for a great Biſhop of England named Thomas of Canturbury. nnSymbolum dedit, coenavit. Ter. Andr. Act. 1. Sen. 1. Durand. Rational. l. 4. c. 25. fol. 133. p. 1. Eraſm. Catechiſm. Symboli Apoſtolor. &c. ſet out with pictures to every Article at the beginning of the book.
Queſt. 9. How was the Creed called the Apoſtles Creed compoſed by the twelve Apoſtles?
Anſ. As a ſhot made up by gueſts each paying his ſhare, for
Queſt. 10. What ſhall be the condition of the world the laſt fifteen dayes before the day of Judgement?
Anſ. ppSee Leg. aur. on the advent of our Lord. fol. 2. p. 2. col. 2. and compare it with the ſelected Sermons out of it publiſhed by James Kavinell, fol. 2. p. 2. col. 2. &c. In whoſe book the dayes are thus numbred and the number thus preciſely reckoned as precedent immediately before the day of judgement.The firſt of the fifteen dayes the water ſhall riſe upon24 the Sea, and it ſhall be higher then any hill by forty cubites.
2. The ſecond day the Sea ſhall fall down ſo low, that unneath the earth may be ſeen.
3. The third day the great fiſhes, as Whales and others, ſhall appear above the water, and ſhall cry unto Heaven, and God onely ſhall underſtand their cry.
4. The fourth day the Sea and waters ſhall brenne.
5. The fifth day all trees and herbes ſhall ſweat bloud, and all manner of fowles ſhall come together, and neither eat nor drink for dread of the doome that is coming.
6. The ſixth day all great buildings, Caſtles, Towers, Steeples and Houſes, ſhall fall down, and brenne till the Sun riſe again.
7. The ſeventh day all Stones and Rocks ſhall beat together, that each ſhall break other, with an horrible noiſe, the which ſhall be heard into Heaven.
8. The eight day the Earth ſhall quake, ſo that there may no man ſtand thereon but ſhall fall down.
9. The ninth day the people ſhall go out of their dens, and go as they were mindleſſe, and none ſpeak to other.
10. The tenth day Hills and Earth ſhall be made even and plain.
11. The eleventh day all graves and tombes ſhall open, and the bodies ſhall ſtand upon them.
12. The twelfth day Stars ſhall fall from Heaven, and ſhall ſpread out raies of fire; on this day, it is ſaid, that all the beaſts ſhall come to the field howling, and ſhall not eat nor drink.
13. The thirteenth day all living ſhall die, to the end that they ſhall riſe with the dead bodies.
14. The fourteenth day the Heaven and the Earth ſhall brenne.
15. The fifteenth day ſhall be a new Heaven and a new Earth, and all things and all dead men ſhall ariſe.
I had not been ſo ſerious, nor inſiſted ſo long in diſcoverie of the fooliſh and unlearned queſtions (ſuch as the Apoſtle reproveth, 2 Tim. 2.23. ) of the Papiſts, both polemicall Schoolmen, and Legendary Preachers, and their ridiculous vanity in reſolving many curious and ſuperfluous doubts by25 revelation; but that I have many of that deceived ſort in my pariſh, (though I thank God ſome fewer then I found when I came thither, and I hope to make them yet ſewer, if God pleaſe to give me time to effect what I have in deſire, and deſign, which is, to manifeſt, that the ruling Romaniſts are the ſubtilleſt Maſters of the ſubtilleſt Myſtery of iniquity in the world; and their ſeduced diſciples, (eſpecially the illiterate) the moſt fooliſh people in the world, from whom they keep the Scripture, and ſo keep them in blind ignorance, that (like hooded hawks) they may carry them whither they pleaſe; for which wrong they would ſeem to make them ſome recompence by ſetting images before them, which are commonly called Lay-mens books, though they can reach them none other leſſon then that a Chriſtian ſhould not learn, viz. falſhood, vanity and errours, Jer. 10.14, 15. and by pretended revelations, which are either meer forgeries of their audacious Doctors, or meer fallacies of the great deceiver mentioned by St. Iohn, Rev. 12.9. who makes them doters about queſtions and ſtrife of words, 1 Tim. 6.4. and puffeth them up to an affectation of forbidden knowledge, as he did our firſt parents, Gen. 3. and their diſciples receivers of any fooliſh fancie which they ſuggeſt unto them.)
But my principall aim in what I have hitherto ſaid in this Chapter, is, to curb thoſe men of corrupt minds, who are too prone to perverſe disputings, ſuch as the Apoſtle reproveth, 1 Tim. 6.5. and ſince (by their diſputings) queſtioning and reſolving, aiming to be wiſe above that is written, 1 Cor. 4.6. they have bewrayed their egregious folly to the world, we may tauntingly take up the queſtion of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 1.20. and put it to them, where is the wiſe? where is the Scribe? where is the disputer of the world? hath not God made fooliſh the wiſdome of this world? he hath doubteſſe: and we may take the great School-man and Queſtioniſt Aquinas for inſtance, whom thoughqqBellarm. de Eccleſ. Script. ad ann. 165. p. 347. Bellarmine commend for his holinleſſe and wiſdome, was neither ſo holy nor ſo wiſe as he ſhould have been: not ſo holy, 1. Becauſe he was ſo bold as to put to diſpute ſo many undoubted principles of divinity as we have noted.
Secondly, becauſe he lacked humility, without which there is no true holineſſe, which he might have learned of his Maſter26 PeterrrModeratior eſt Petrus Lombardus, qui ſententias alienas recitans non temerè de ſuo addit, aut ſi quid, timidè proponit. Eraſm. in Epiſt. ad Caron. delectum Epiſc. Panorum. Epiſt. l. 28. p. 1161. Lombard, of whom Eraſmus righly obſerveth, that resiting the opinions or ſentences of others, he did not raſhly adde any thing of his own; and when he added any thing, it was rather with fear then confidence.
Nor was he ſo wife as he ſhould have been: for as much as he wanted in humility, ſo much he had in pride, and as much pride, ſo much folly; for pride and folly, as humility and wiſedome, are ſorted together by the wife man, Prov. 14. v. 3. c. 11. v. 2. And though he looked for credit by his bold inquiries and concluſions, and had it of thoſe of his own ſide; yet ſuch as were ſound in the faith, and not partiall in affection, diſcovered and diſdained his pride, and ſo it was followed with ſhame, as Solomon obſerveth, Prov. 11.2. whereof we have a memorable paſſage betwixt Eraſmus, and Dr. Collet, the godly and famous Deane of Pauls, in K. H. the 8, his daies; to whom when Eraſmus had much commended Aquinas, to heare his judgement of him, and he gave him none anſwer, he propoſed and more vehemently preſſed the praiſe of him the ſecond time: to whichssTanquam afflatus Spiritu quodam, quid tu, inquit, mihi praedicas iſtum, qui niſi habuiſſet multum arrogantiae, non tanta temeritate, tantoque ſupercilio definiſſet omnia; & niſi habuiſſet aliquid Spiritus mundani, non ita totam Chriſti doctrinam ſua prophanâ Philoſophiâ contaminaſſet. Eraſm. Epiſt. ad Jodoc. Jonae l. 15. p. 486. Collet, as if he had been inſpired with an anſwer from God, preſently replyed, What meane you ſo to praiſe that man to me, who if be had not had much arrogancy in him, would not with ſuch temerity and ſuperciliouſneſſe have defined all things? and if he had not had ſomewhat of the Spirit of the world, he would not have ſo defiled the Doctrine of Chriſt with his profane Philoſophy. How worthy a man Dr. Colles was (for learning and Godlineſſe) they that deſire to know, may find a ſhort ſtory of him in Mr. Fox histFox Martyr. vol. 2. p. 54. 55. ſecond volume of Acts and Monuments, and in the fore-cited Epiſtle of Eraſmus, he was ſo much a Papiſt (being levened with the corrupt Doctrine of the age wherein he lived) that King Henry the 8. after a Sermon preached by him in his preſence, and long communication with him, by occaſion thereof diſmiſſed him with theſe words, Let every one have his Doctor as he liketh, this ſhall be my Doctor: and yet ſo much a Proteſtant both in his preaching and practiſe, that asuBiſh. Lat. in his 7th. Serm, on the Lor. Prayer. ſol. 174. p. 2. Biſhop27 Latimer ſald, he ſhould have been burned in K. H. the Eight his reigne, if God had not inclined the Kings heart to the contrary.
THough for the undoubted duties of morality, the Apoſtle preſcribeth preſent and prompt obedience, without murmurings or deſputings, and that in all things of that kind, Phil. 2.14. yet for matter of faith and conſcience he requireth no ſuch facility either in affection, or in fact; but giveth leave and leiſure, or rather adviſe to Chriſtians, to bring both the Spirits and ſpeeches of men to triall, 1 Iohn 4.1. 1 Theſ. 5.21. and when he requireth of Chriſtian believers that they be ready alwaies to give an anſwer to every one that asketh a reaſon of the hope that is in them, 1 Pet. 3.15. he meaneth (doubtleſſe) that if any cavil at that anſwer or reaſon, he that giveth it ſhould make anſwer for it to defend it; and if this be required of a Chriſtian, much more of a Miniſter, who ſhould be able by ſound Doctrine both to exhort and convince the gaianſayers, Tit. 9.11. as it is ſaid of Apollos, that he mightily convinced the Iewes, and that publickly, ſhewing by the Scripture that Ieſus was Chriſt: which may ſtop the mouths of ſome adverſaries; as they ſay offfMr. Trapp on Tit. 1.11. Frogs, that if a light be hanged over the lake wherein they lie, will leave crocking: though ſome be ſo contumacious againſt the truth, ſo malicious againſt them who prevalently plead for it, that they will rather ſtop their mouthes (by violence) who have overcome them by the power of truth, as they did by Stephen when they ſtoned him, Act. 7. v. 54, 57, 59. then confeſſe themſelves convinced or ſatisfied with the cleareſt evidence produced in the plaineſt cauſe that can be debated: but28 this is not the fault of diſputation it ſelf, but the perverſneſſe of the diſputant, who will diſputare or diſcedere (for according to that ſenſe we may make the Etymology of the word) though he have not one wiſe word to ſay for the folly and falſity of his opinion; we muſt, as ſaith that ancient Doctor and Confeſſour H•larius,ggNon tam evitanda quàm•…futanda [Dogmata] non tam refugere debemus quàm refellere, &c. Hilaran Pſal. l. 2. p. 186. not flee from the erroneous doctrines of men, a•afraid to encounter them; but muſt refell and conquer them by diſputations as Picus Mirandula ſaith, It is thehhDiſputatio cribrum veritatis. Picus Mirandula. Tom. 2. operum. 3. Epiſt. p. 853. ſieve or ſearce to ſever the fine flower of truth from the courſe branne of errour: which is not more for the honour of truth, then for the benefit of thoſe that do embrace it; for ſo diſtinguiſhed, it is not onely more amiable to the eye, and more pleaſant to the taſte, but more nutritive, as breeding better and puter nouriſhment to the ſoul. And as it is a deed and duty of charity for ſuch as have the charge of ſoules to feed them with the fineſt of the whest, and with the honey out of the rock to ſatisfie them, which is the proviſion that God is willing to bellow upon his obedient people, Pſalm 81. v. laſt: So is it alſo a charitable act and office, not to ſuffer them to be choked with the bran of errour and Hereſie, which many are too forward to obtrude upon ignorant and inconſiderate people; yea hereticall ſeducement is more dangerous then ſo, for the Apoſtle ſaith of ſuch as Hymeneus and Philetus, who were hereticks, that their ſpeech will•at like a Canker, or Gangrene, 2 Tim. 2.17. which is eaſie to catch, and hard to cure: what their Hereſie in patticular was, is not diſcovered in the Scriptures, nor in any ancient Author near the times wherein they lived: of Philetus there is mention but once, that is in the place fore-cited; of Hymeneus twice, viz. both here and 1 Tim. 1. laſt, where he hath another malignant mate named with him, viz. Alexander, whom Saint Paul delivered to Satan, that they might learne not to blaſpheme: by which we learn, it was a blaſphemous Doctrine, and probably it was (asiiTheodoret on the 1 Tim. 1. laſt. Theodoret conceiveth) well known to Timothy; and we know that a Canker and Gangrene are very dangerous diſeaſes, and thoſe who are Spirituall Phyſicians, ought in charity to do their beſt to keep their flocks from ſuch infective and deſtructive miſchiefs. And if diſputation be a meanes, as being wiſely ordered it may prove, it may be expedient29 that way to curb and diſcourage Hereticks from corrupting of them: which may ſerve alſo for an antidote to preſerve their ears from the venome and poyſon of hereticall tongues; who, if they be let alone, without oppoſition will go on to ſubvert whole houſes, as the Apoſtle ſaith, Tit. 1.11. And as for prevention of the ſpreading of Hereſie, ſo for recovery of ſuch as are already enſnared by it, and for reconciliation of ſuch as diſſent in judgement and affection, diſputations may be requiſite and uſe•ull; to which purpoſekkPollid. in vita Aug c. 3. Honorius the Emperour compelled the Donatiſts to give meeting to the Catholi•ks, and ſometimes they have proved very advantageous to the truth: Thus it was in the beginning of the reformation of Religion, when the errours of Popery were in their nature more groſſe, more rude in their dreſſe, and their Prieſts nothing ſo politick as ſince they have been; the ProteſtantsllSir Edw. Sands Europae ſpeculum. p. 85. loffired disputations in all places the effects whereof, as were touched before whether received or refuſed, drew with them an immediate alteration of Religion: for if they were received, the better cauſe prevailed; if they were not, they who refuſed gave cauſe of ſuſpicion, that their Coine howſoever it were gilded, was indeed but Copper, which could not (as pure gold) endure to be tried by the touch ſtone; and the alteration of Religion then was ſuch asmmDiſputatio Bernenſis ſ•une finem habuit apud illos & aliquot vicinos, miſſae, arae & ſtatuae erant abolitae. Surius commentar. ann. 1527. p. 208. Surius complaineth of; Maſſes, Altars and images were aboliſhed.
And as diſputation, if ordered as it ought to be, may produce good effects, ſo the want of that, eſpecially the refuſall of it, when it is importunately called for by the adverſaries, may give them occaſion of inſulting; andnnTaciturnitas corumquireſiſtere deberent perverrenti•…us fidei veritatē, eſſet errorisconfirmatio. Epiſt. Synod. in Concil. Baſil. Tom. 8. p. 230. col. 2. the ſilence of ſuch as ſhould conteſt with them may be turned to the confirmation of errour, as is obſerved in the Synodall Epiſtles of the Councill of Baſil, which was likely to have been the ill effect of yours and Doctor Grewes refuſall to encounter with M. Knowles and Mr. Kiffin, if you had not been as reſolute to reſiſt them as they were preſumptuous to provoke you to diſpute.
Laſtly, as conferences and debates may effect much ſpirituall good, if managed as they ſhould be, (and I ſtill underſtand them with that limitation) ſo may they be meanes of30 corporall good alſo; for where no diſputations are allowed of, there the matters of difference are carried with more fraud, force and violence; as we have touched before upon the Spaniſh Inquiſition, and may obſerve further, out of the**Neque in diſputando apud tales pertinaci animoſitate centendentes & annitentes propriae prudentiae, ullus unquam erit finis; &c. Cochleus Hiſt. lib. 1. c. 21. Chap. 2. let. n. Epiſtle of John Gerſon to the Archbiſhop of Prague, wherein he would not have him to put the matters in difference with the Bohemian Proteſtants to diſputation, but adviſeth him to take another courſe, which is to cut down Hereſie by the Temporall Sword; he meanes the Hereticks: for (ſaith he) by disputing with ſuch as with pertinacious animoſity contend, leaning to their own prudence, there will never be an end, &c.
This agreeeth well with that of Eccius, who (as we noted before) wrote one Treatiſe againſt diſputation with Hereticks, another for burning of them; which Bellarmine would have taken not for a perſecution of them, but for an act of favour and benefit to them, as we ſhall have occaſion more particularly to note in the fifth chap. Much more charitable and Chriſtian was theppCan. 66. Synod Lond. ann. 1604. Canon of our Engliſh Biſhops for conference with Recuſants; and had they been as carefull to ordain onely good and able Miniſters as they ſhould have been, we might have found better fruits of their government then we have done. But the effects and iſſues of colloquies, conferences and diſputations, I reſerve for another chapter, viz. the fifth now cited.
OF diſputations, ſome are managed without the ſtrife tongues, Pſal. 31.10. as the dialogues or colloquies of Plato, Cicero, Lucian, among the Heathens; and ſome of Athanaſius, Hierome, Auguſtines tracts among the ancient Fathers; Galatinus, Eraſmus, Peter Martyr, and other, of later times. To this head may be referred the polemicall diſcourſes, that are read in Schooles, or publiſhed in print, or both, of differences in Religion; as Bellarmine calleth his Volumes of controverſies, Diſputations, though there appeared none oppoſite to diſpute againſt him. And ſome, though agitated with ſtrife of tongues, are not like the diviſions of Reuben, great thoughts of heart, Judg. 5.15. Such are the diſputes now in print, whereof Gilbert Voetius profeſſour at Ʋtriect was moderator, betwixt a viſible and vocall Opponentand Reſpondent, contradicting each other, yet without any hearty oppoſition; both parties, though adverſe in words, yet of one mind and one judgement: and ſo it is in the ordinary Academicall diſputations of Oxford and Cambridge, where the controverſie is rather formall then ſerious, except when the Reſpondent taketh upon him the defence of ſome Paradox, as one Mr. Ph. of Mort. Colledge did in my time, who propoſed this for an Actqueſtion,aaAn liceat pro puncto honoris aliquem interficere. Whether for a point of honour it were lawfull for any one to kill another: wherein he held the affirmative, which how it32 came to p•ſſe that it was permitted I know not; ſure I am that divers learned and conſcientious men were diſpleaſed with it: or when the Opponent is of a contrary judgement to the Reſpondent, as Mr. Tombs to Doctor Savage, when at the Act in Oxford he diſputed againſt the Baptiſm of Infants. This was very contrary to manner of the old Academicks of the Plato's inſtitution, ſo called from thebbAcademici ex locivocabulo nomen habuerunt. Cicer. Acad. quaeſt l. 1. edit. 2. p. 34. 12. place where the Philoſophers met to diſpute, I mean for peremptorineſſe of opinion; who were ſo far from maintaining paradoxall poſitions or concluſions, that they would poſitively conclude, or determine nothing at all, holding asccId habebant Academici decr•tum, nihil poſſe percipi. Cic. Ib. edit. 1. l. 2. p. 49. Num. 29. a decree, that nothing by diſpute could be diſcovered; wherein ſome were ſo abſurd (asddChius Metrodorus in initio libri qui eſt de natura, nego, inquit, ſcire nos ſciamusne aliquid, an nihil ſciamus. Ib. p. 17 Num. 67. Chius Metrodorus) that they denyed a man could know whether he knew any thing or nothing; and therefore though they diſputed much, it waseeProprium eſt Academiae judicium ſuum nullum interponere, ſed quod in quamque ſententiam diei poſſit expromere, ſed judicium audientibus relinquere integrum & liberum. Cicer. de divin. l. 2. p. 305. proper to their diſcipline to bring in reaſons on both ſides, to find out what is moſt likely, and ſo without paſſing any ſentence to leave the judgement wholly to the hearers. Thef〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Diog. Laert. in vita Pyrthonis lib. 9. p. 675. Scepticks in Diogenes Laertius, were of near affinity to them, who were ſo called, becauſe they were ever ſeeking, and never found what they ſought for: there were Sceptick women in the Apoſtles time, 2 Tim. c. 3. v. 7. Our Seekers are ſuch in their Religion as thoſe were in Philoſophy, but ſo much the worſe, as it is to be ignorant or unreſolved of truth in Religion, eſpecially in ſuch points as are fundamentall, then of points philoſophicall. But the Academicall diſputations of Chriſtians are as well concluſive as diſcurſive, although it were better that ſome Academies were rather Scepticall then definitive, viz. ſuch as were founded of purpoſe for oppoſition to the truth in the name of Hereſie, as that ofgDua cenſis Academia in Relgio ſuperioribus annis à Philip. 2. Rege Catholico inſtituta, cum per Germ. & Galliam perniciociſſimas haereſes increbreſcere videret, &c. Jacob. Meddendorp. de Academ l. 3. p. 524. Dowey by Philip the ſecond King of Spain. The uſe of Diſputations, colloquies and conferences rightly inſtituted, and according to the inſtitutions obſerved, ſerves not onely to clear problematicall,hNon inutilitèr exercentur ingenia, ſi adhibeatur diſceptatio modetata, & abſit error opinantium ſe ſcire quod neſciunt. Auguſtin. Eachirid. ad Laurent. c. 59. Tom. 3. part. 1. p. 218. and to aſſure and confirme fundamentall33 doctrines, but are profitable, as Austine obſerveth, for the exerciſe of wit, if the diſceptation be moderate, and without the errour of ſuch as think they know that they know not.
Though I mention theſe Academicall diſputations, as in honour to learning, to which we ſhould take all fair occaſions to give laudable teſtimony; eſpecially ſince ſome in theſe times with a Turkiſh Antipathy to learning, cry down Academicall Colledges, Books, Studies, exerciſes, and would Levell thoſe faire Fabricks, as Babylonian buildings, even with the ground, unleſſe they might take them in poſſeſſion for themſelves, (which once the Levellers attempted;) yet I make them rather a Proem then a part of mine hiſtoricall Catalogue, which ſhall conſiſt of the perſonall debates of ſuch as are far from the profeſt Union of the Apoſtle, in ſpeaking the ſame thing, and being perfectly joyned together in one mind and one judgement, 1 Cor. 1.10. whoſe minds are contrary, and their tongues contradictory, and their pens alſo; when they take them up like pikes to proſecute the war by writing, which by verbal diſputation they began.
The diſpute betwixt Michael and the Arch•ngel, with the Devil about the body of Moſes, mentioned in the 9. of Jude,iiJacob. Salianus Anno Mundi 2583. 329. ante Chriſti nat. anno 1440. p. 310. col. 1. for antiquity hath the precedency of all others; and though ſome take it in a figurative ſenſe, the moſt and beſt expoſitors underſtand it literally: yet there is great difference what was the difference betwixt them; Jude ſaith the ſubject of it, was the body of Moſes; and about that, that chief controverſie was whether Moſes body ſhould be ſo buried, that no man ſhould know of his Sepulchre, as it is ſaid, Deut. 34.6. Why his buriall-place ſhould be concealed, the reaſon which hath the beſt ground, and moſt concurrent conſent is, becauſe he was ſo worthy and renowned a man, ſo much honoured by God and man while he lived, that, conſidering the people of Iſraels proneneſſe to Idolatry, his body was like to be made an Idol by them: wherein he gainſaid the Angel, as if he were zealous for the honour of Moſes, though he might intend his diſhonour by contemptuous abuſe of it by his enemies. But is it not ſaid that he died on Mount Nebo, (which is the top of Piſgah, whence he ſaw the Land of Canaan, Deut. 34. v. 1, 2, 3, 4.) and was buried in a valley in the Land of Moab, over againſt Bethptor,34 Deut. 34.6. Yes, but for all that though he were carried by the Divine power or Miniſtry of the Angell into the valley and there buried, yet no man ſaw in what part of the valley his body was interred: But did not the Devil know the place? if ſo, he might diſcover it, and act according to the evil ends before rehearſed; ſo that the anſwer may be, that if God pleaſed he could keep it ſecret from the Devil, if the Devil knew it, he could make him keep it ſecret; if he were never ſo deſirous to reveal it: and herein askkCum Diabolus revelare & prodere vellet Judaeis ad idololatriā pronis, impeditus eſt & rohibitus ad Archangelo Michael. Adrichon. Delph. Theatr. terrae Sanctae in tribu Ruben. p. 126. col. 1.3. I conceive conſiſted the conteſtation betwixt Michael and the Devil, that when the Devil would have diſcovered the Sepulchre of Moſes to the Jewes, prone to Idolatry, he was prohibited and hindred by the Angell, There is, ſaith““Inter angelos bonos & malos perpetua diſputatio eſt, &c. Luth. Icom. claſſ. c. 36. p. 100. Luther, a perpetuall diſpute betwixt the good and the bad Angels; the good Angels propoſe and promote good things; the bad Angels bad: the good anſwer all objections, and reprehend them for their Counſells and courſes. Another notable diſputation with the Devil we read of, Mat. 4. and Luke 4.llAnn. Chriſti. 31. Anno. Chriſti. 34. called by ſome a Monomachie or ſingle combate betwixt our Saviour and him, wherein the queſtion was, whether Chriſt was the Son of God or no; the Devil was opponent, and Chriſt the Reſpondent, as you may read in the two precedent Chapters. By theſe two examples we are taught two things, for our inſtruction and imitation, from the former, not to give railing ſpeeches in diſputes, Jude, 9. By the other we are directed with what weapon to wage our war, (viz.) the word of God. But my hiſtoricall narrative I ſhall make up of meer humane examples; beginning firſt with the Protomartyr Stephen, in the Hiſtory of the Acts of the Apoſtles,mmBucolzer. Ind. Chron. p. 135. which containeth the memorable perſons and paſſages of the Church, for the ſpace of twenty ſix yeares, beginning at the aſcenſion of Chriſt, and ending at his 59. yeare, and the 4. of Nero, there, viz. Act. c. 6. v. 9. We read that there aroſe certain of the Synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and them of Cilicia and of Aſia disputing with Stephen; thennThema diſputationis eſt, An Jeſus Nazarenus ſit verus Meſſias, &c. Stephanus affirmat ita eſſe, neganti proferuntur argumenta in medium contra ſententiam Stephani, verū is ea ita refringit, &c. Centari, l. 2. c. 12. p. 648. Centur. Magdetur genſes, ſet forth this diſputation in a formall manner, ſetting down, firſt the Theme or argument of their diſputation, or queſtion, viz. Whether Jeſus Chriſt be the Meſſias foretold by, the Prophets and whether all things foretold of the Meſſias by the35 Prophets, may be applied to and were fulfilled in him, and the works recorded of him. Stephen affirmeth, they deny; they propoſe their arguments, Stephen refuteth them &c.
Paul, as himſelf confeſſeth to God, Acts 22.20. When the bloud of the Martyr Stephen was ſhed, he was ſtanding by and conſenting to his death, and kept the raiment of them that flew him; and they ſlew him by ſtoning him, Acts 7.59. but God, by that hard-hearted cruelty, and Stephens Patience, Charity, and Piety, and the divine power concurring together, was occaſionall and cauſall for his converſion, and after that he became a zealous Champion for Chriſt and his truth, and diſputed for it and him as Stephen did, for he ſpake boldly in the name of the Lord Jeſus, and diſputed againſt the Grecians, Acts 9.29. in the Synagogue of the Iewes, and with devout perſons, and in the Market daily with them that met him, Acts 17.17. and c. 19. he disputed daily in the School of one Tyrannus, Acts 19.9. Whether this Tyrannus were a Prince or ſome potent man of rule and authority who founded the School, and allowed it for the exerciſe of Scholaſticall diſputations, or a particular perſon, the Maſter of the School, whoſe name was Tyrannus; and whether a teacher of Philoſophy or Rhetorick, and whether converted by Paul, he were willing he ſhould make uſe of his School for propagation of the Goſpel among his Scholars and others who might have recourſe unto him there (the affirmative whereof are the moſt probable opinions of the moſt approved expoſitions) I dare not determine; but there is no doubt but he was ſo enabled by humane learning and divine aſſiſtance to manage a controverſie in the cauſe of Chriſt, againſt all gainſayers, and ſo zealous to advance it unto victory, that he pretermitted no opportunity of pleading for it, either by preaching or polemicall conteſtation. The ſtory of Paul for ſuch particulars isooPauli curriculum〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉delineabimus, cumcerta annorum diſtinctione deſtituamur. Bucolz. chron. p. 136. not noted with ſuch a certain diſtinction of years in the Scripture, that we can as punctually ſay when, as of what, with whom, and where he diſputed, but that we may know that all his diſputations were acted betwixt the 35. yeare of Chriſt (““Ibid. when Stephen was ſtoned, and Paul was converted) and the 68. yeareppHelvic. chronol. p. 86. when he was martyred.
After the Apoſtles time, as hereſies begun to ſpring faſter36 and ſpread further, ſo there were no doubt many conflicts betwixt Chriſtians and Hereticks, beſides the controverſies with Jewes and Pagans, eſpecially ſuch as pretended to learning, whether as Philoſophers, Rhetoricians, and Politicians: And when we read the refutation of their errours in Iuſtin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Epiphanius and others, we cannot but conceive in probality of reaſon, that they had many perſonall diſputes with their adverſaries, though we find them not upon record, or if we did we would not put our ſelves or the Reader to ſuch paines to rehearſe them all, conceiving it ſufficient to ſelect a competent number of ſuch as are of ſpeciall note; As that of““Ann. Chriſti 150. Juſtin. Martyr. Dial. cum Tryphone. à p. 217. ad 371. Graecolat. Pariſ. 1636. Iuſtine Martyr with Tripho a Iew, held at Epheſus; wherein Iuſtine maintaineth againſt the Iew, that the Chriſtian Religion doth not leane to fables, but reſteth on demonſtration full of the Spirit of God; and that Chriſtians, though they obſerve not circumciſion, nor the Iewiſh holy-dayes, and other ceremonies, they are not therefore tranſgreſſors of the Covenant of God: the reſt and the greateſt part of the diſpute is ſpent in defending the true Doctrine of the perſon and offices of Chriſt, againſt all Iewiſh cavills, and concluded with a reproofe of their groſſe ingratitude to God, in worſhiping the golden Calfe; after innumerable bleſſings and miraculous mercies ſhewed to them,Ann. 206. their great impiety in offering their Sons and Daughters unto Devils, their killing of Chriſt, perſecution of Chriſtians, and practiſe of polygamie; for all which he exhorteth the Jewes to hearty repentance. Minutius Felix,qqMinutius Felix inſignis cauſidicus. Hierom. Tom. 1. p. 229. cauſidic. Rom in. fori. Ib. Tom. 3. p. 322. a famous Lawyer of the Court of Rome, as Hierome calleth him,rrThis Dialogue is in the 9. Tom. Biblioth. Patr. à. col. 1. ad. 22. publiſhed a diſputation dialogue wiſe betwixt Octavius a Chriſtian, and Cecilius an Heathen; Octavius ſhewes the abſurdity, cruelty, and impiety of the Heathen Religion, and juſtifies the Chriſtian againſt the opinion of Cecilius, & the Scandals put upon Chriſtians by the Heathens,ssQuaſi. Chriſtiani monſtra colerent, infantes convivia incerta vorarent. Ib. Minut. Felix. col. 16. as if they did worſhip Monſters, devour infants, and mingled inceſt with their banquets: But this dialogue (though taken by ſome learned men for an Hiſtoricall truth) ſeemes rather to be a perſonated diſpute made by Minutius himſelf, then a reall concertation betwixt any perſons ſo named, wherein, as Lactantius conceiveth, that learned Lawyer declares how fit an aſſertor of the truth he37ttDeclarat quā idoneus aſſertor veritatis eſſe potuiſſet ſi ſe totum ad id ſtudium contuliſſer Lactan. Iuſtit. l. 5. c. 2. p. 401. might have been if he had wholly addicted himſelf to the endeavour thereof. uuAnno. 226. Hierom Apolog. adverſus Ruffinum Tom. 2. operum p. 224.Hierome makes a report of a Dialogue or diſpute betwixt Origen and Candidus a defender of the Valentinian Here ſie, wherein (ſaith he) me thinks I ſee two blind, or darkwAnd abatae qui nocte vel qui cl•uſis ocalis pugnant. Eraſin. chil. ad. p. 624 col. 2. and p. 685. col. 1. Andabata's fighting together: the Valentinians ſay he Son is of the ſubſtance of his Father, but withall aſſerts that he was ſent from his Father with a Celeſtiall body (for that was the errour ofxAlphonſus de caſtro adverſ. hereſ. lib. 4. col. 266. Anno. 226. Valentinus;) on the contrary part Origen according to Arius and Eunomus, denies his begetting or generation from the Father, leſt he ſhould divide the Father into parts.
Archelaus Biſhop of Meſopotamia wrote a booke in the Syriack-Tongue, of his diſputations againſt a Manichaean Heretick going out of Perſia, which was tranſlated into the Greek, and was in many mens hands inyyHieronymus Tom. 1. operum p. 294. Anno 277. Hieromes time, but now is loſt, aszzBaron. Annal. Tom. 2. An. 277. parag. 14. Baronius thinks; this Archelaus flouriſhed neer the Emperour Probus his time, who ſucceeded Aurelianus and Tacitus: But the errours of the Manichees remain ſtill uponaaAug. de haereſ. ad quod vult Deum Haeſee. p. 46. Tom. 6. p. 24. record, they are many and groſſe, as Auſtine andbbEpiphan. 1.2. Tom. 2. p. 149. precip. p. 155. Ann. 315. Epiphanius report them; the principall was that of their two contrary principles, the one good, the other bad, both eternall; and ſo was moſt likely to make one part of the diſpute.
There was at the City of Nice a notable diſputationccNiceph. Calliſt. Eccl. Hiſt. l. 8. c. 15. p. 379. betwixt one who was a skilfull Logician and learned Philoſopher, by nation a Greek, who confiding in his art and eloquence infulted over the orthodox Chriſtians, but was undertaken and taken down by Spiridian an old man, who confuted and converted him: about that time was Arius diſputed with and confuted by the Council of Nice: there is queſtion made whether Arius were at the Council or no, which is diſcuſſed byddScultetus medul. Patrum. p. 1. p. 467. Anno. 349. Scultetus, and the affirmative proved by him againſt them that deny it.
Athanaſius had a ſolemn diſpute with Arius at Laodicea, which is ſet downeeTom. 2. operum Graecolat. à col. 66. ad. 394. as a Trialogue, or a tripartite diſcourſe betwixt three perſons, Athanaſius, Arius and Probus a Gentile judge, delegated by the Emperour Conſtantine to over-ſ•e and38 order that affaire, and to make report of the paſſages of it to himſelf, which was like to be done with diſadvantage to the cavilling Heretick, who not able to anſwer Athanaſius prooſs, charged him with magicall Arts, and there withall faſcinating the ſenſes of his judges.
There was a publick diſputation appointed by Valentinian the Emperour betwixt Ambroſe Biſhop of Millain, and Auxentius an Arrian Heretick, who preſuming of the favour of Iuſtina Auguſta an Arrian, challenged the Biſhop to diſpute, who refuſed the challenge, and rendred his reaſons thereof to the Emperour;Anno. 386. which you may readffIn Ambroſe his 32. Epiſt. to Valentin. lib. 2. Tom. 3. p. 121. &c. and in Baron. Annal. Tom 4. ad ann. Chriſti 386. paragraph. 16, & 17. Tom. 4 col. 56. in the works of Ambroſe. ggChryſoſt. in Epiſt. prior. in Corinth. cap. 1. Homil. 3. Tom. 4. col. 352.Chryſoſtome maketh mention of a ridiculous diſpute in his conceit betwixt a Chriſtian and an Heathen, the queſtion was whether Paul or Plato were more learned; wherein though the Heathen preferred his Plato, the Chriſtian his Paul, yet for humane learning the Chriſtian (as Chryſoſtom ſuppoſed) ſhould have given therein the better to Plato, that ſo the prevailing by Paul might appear to be not by humane wiſdome, but by divine grace.
The EmperourhhPoſſid. in vita. Aug. c. 3. Tom. 1. Geſt. Prim. Collat. p. 2. nu. 1 Ann. 412. Honorius deſirous to bring the Donatiſts to concord with the Catholicks, compelled them to a collation or conference; or which purpoſe he ſent Marcellus a Tribune and Notary, to take order for their meeting accordingly; he was, it ſeemeth, Notary for the Emperour, for the Catholick party had two others, Ianuarius and Vitalis, the Donatiſts two of their own alſo,Anno. 410. Victor and Creſcentius: of the collation at Carthage, all the the paſſages, the moſt ſolemn part of it in three daies make up a juſt Volume of above 400. pages in 8uo publiſhed by Papirus Maſſonus a Civilian of Paris Anno. 1588.
Auguſtine, when he was converted from Manicheiſme to true Chriſtianity, became a vigorous and zealous Champion for the truth; and both by his tongue and pen had many diſputations with many ſorts of Hereticks, as Arrians, Donatiſts, Manichees, Originiſts, Polagians, Priſcillians; it is hard to ſort them in the ſeverall yeares, with exact accommodation to the yeares of Chriſt, but the moſt of them were acted from the 43. yeare of his age to theiiBucolzer. Index. chronol. ad ann. 430. p. 231. 77. when he died: we ſhall have occaſion to make obſervation of ſome of them in the next Chapter.
39Arnobius the youngerkkBell. de eccl. Script. p. 208. wrote a book of this title,Ann. 460. The conflicts of the Catholicks with Serapion, concerning the Trinity, and the Unity of two ſubſtances in the ſingle perſon of Chriſt; which it is like, had their paſſage in alternate turnes of objections and anſwers, after the manner of diſputation, not much before this time.
llTom. 3. conc. p. 853. col. 1. Severiani à Severo exorti vinum non bibunt. quod fabuloſa vanitate de Satana & terra germinaſſe aſſerant vitem: carnis reſurrectionē cum veteri Teſtamento reſpuunt. Aug. Tom 6. de haereſ. Quod vult Doumhaereſ. 24. Tom. 6. p. 16. Anno. 645.There was a collation or diſputation held at Conſtantinople,Anno 531. in the time of Iuſtinian the younger, betwixt the Catholicks and Hereticks called S•verians; whoſe hereſie was, that by a ſabulous vanity they condemned the uſe of wine, as ſuppoſing the Devil begat the vine of the Earth: they denyed alſo the reſurrection of the body, and all the old Teſtament.
In themmConcil. Tom. 4. p. 624. fourth tome of Councells, we find a diſputation ſet down betwixt Pyrrbus Patriarch of Conſtantinople, and Maximus a learned Monks; the Patriarch was a Monothelite, holding but one will in Chriſt; whereas Chriſt being God and man, and ſo having two natures, he muſt needs have two wills, one as he is God, another as he is man, for elſe he were not perfect God and perfect man: this two-fold will we find Luk. 22.42. Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me, nevertheleſſe not my will but thine be done: for this Maximus pleaded againſt Pyrrbus as a Monothelite, who held that he had but one will, and that was divine; I ſpeak the more diſtinctly of this hereſie, becauſe it is known to few what it is, to fewer how it is to be confuted.
About the obſervation of Eaſter there hath been much controverſie in the Church many yeares ago; as in the yeare 196. the Chriſtians in AſiaooSee Euſeb. Eccleſ. Hiſt. lib. 5. c. 20, 21, 22, 23, 24. Sethus Calviſ. chron. p. 485. c. 2. out of a tradition of Iohn the Evangeliſt kept the Feaſt of Eaſter, upon the 14. day of the month, as Exod. 12.6, 7. What day of the week ſoever it was, other Chriſtians in Europe, kept it onely that day when our Saviour roſe from the dead, and this as by a tradition from Saint Peter, for which TenetppEuſebius ubi ſuprà. Ann. 546. Victer the Biſhop of Rome was ſo hot, that he would have excommunicated the Biſhops of Aſia for the contrary opinion and practiſe, but that divers Biſhops, eſpecially Irenaeus, wrote unto him, that for a difference of ceremonies and rites, the concord of doctrine and faith ſhould not be broken.
There was another great diſſention atqqSethus Calviſ, p. 577. col. 2. Conſtantinople de termino40 Paſch. anno 546. But the moſt famous diſpute about that matter was that whichrrB•de Eccleſ. Hiſt. gentis Anglor. lib. 3. c. 25. Ann. 664. Bede reporteth, which was carried on moſt of all by Coleman (whom ſome account an Iriſhman, and ſome a Scotchman; whereof the cauſe may be, for thatssPhilip. Ferrarius. p. 177. c. 1. ſome call Ireland Scotland) and Wilfred, a Presbyter of Mercia, whoſe King Oſwi was preſent at the diſputation, and gave his vote for the obſervation of Eaſter according to S. Peters order,ttEgo vobis dico, quia hic oſtiarius eſt ille cui ego contradicere nolo, ſed in quantum novi & valeo hujus cupio in omnibus obedire ſtatutis, ne forrè me advenienre ad fores regni coelorum non ſit qui reſerat, averſo illo quiclaves tenere probatur. B•dae Eccleſiaſt. Hiſt. lib. 3. c. 25. p. 139. upon goodly reaſon, Becauſe Peter (ſaith he) is the keeper of Heaven gates, whom I will by no meanes contradict, but as much as in me lieth I will obey all his ſtatutes, leſt when I come to the gates of Heaven there be none to let me in, he being averſe who keepes the Keyes.
From the time laſt noted Antichriſt grew up apace towards his achme; and when he attained to a predominancie of power, the courſe was according to the Council of Gerſon, cited in the precedent Chapter, rather to out down Hereticks (as the Papiſts call all that are not Popiſhywith the Sword, then to diſpute with them by word, untill Luther (ſtirred up by the Indulgences of Pope Leo the 10. and the covetous and blaſphemous ſelling of them by Tecelius) oppoſed rather the corrupt practiſe of the Court of Rome, then the erroneous Religion of the Church of Rome. Anno. 15•8.
His firſt diſputation againſt it was at Heidelberg in the Cloiſter of theuuMelchior. Adam. in vita Luther. p. 108. Augustinian Monks, which is now called the Colledge of wiſdome, and it was of juſtification by Faith: at that Diſputation Bucer was preſent, who with a quick hand wrote what Luther delivered, which he communicated to Beatus Rhenanus with much praiſe and applauſe on Luthers part. Ann. 1519.
That yearwwBucolz. Index chron. p. 476. there was a diſputation at Lipſia betwixt Luther and Eccius about the primacy of the Pope, Penance, Purgatory, and Indulgences; and betwixt Corolſtadius and Eccius about free will.
41After ſeveral Treaties in ſeveral places in Germany,Anno 1530. ſeven Catholicks and ſeven Proteſtants were choſen to confer together, to finde out a means of compoſition; who not being able to agree, the number was reſtrained to three apiece: and though ſome few ſmall Points of Doctrine, and other petty things (belonging to ſome Rites) were agreed on, yet in concluſion it was perceived, that the conference could produce no concord at all, becauſe neither party was willing to grant to the other any thing of importance. Anno 1541.
ThexxSleyd. Com. lib. 13. p. 279. Emperour Charles V. propoſed a Colloquie to the Proteſtant Princes, to be held atyyIbid. l. 14. p. 281. Ratisbone, betwixt Julius Pelagius, John Eccius, John Gropperus, choſen for the Papiſts; Philip Melancthon, Martin Bucer, and John Piſtorius for the Proteſtants.
To them was delivered a Book by Granvell, given to Caeſar, as he ſaid, by ſome good man; the Heads whereof he would have them to conſider, which were, Of the Creation of Man, and his Integrity of Nature before the Fall, Of Free-will, Of the cauſe of Sin, Of Original Sin, Of Justification of a ſinner, Of the Church, Signs, and Authority thereof, Of the Word, Repentance, Of the Authority of the Church in Interpretation of Scripture, Of Abſolution, Matrimony, Of the Sacraments, Of Order, Of Images, The Maſs, Adminiſtration of Sacraments, Of Diſcipline of the Church, Miniſters and People. Eccius erat impatiens atquemoroſus, nam & librum faſtidiebat, & collegas minime probabat qui egerant rem diligenter, & reconciliarunt multa, nec illa quidem levia doctrinae capita. Ibid. In this Colloquie Eccius ſhewed himſelf impatient and froward, and diſdained the Book, and diſliked his Collegues: yet they handled the matter diligently, and reconciled ſome Heads of Doctrine of no ſmall moment. Anno 1546.
bbSleyd. Com. l. 16. p. 353, 354.Caeſar renewed the Diſputation at Ratisbone, but with other Speakers on both ſides, except onely Martin Bucer. The Points to be argued on were the ſame, the ſame Preſidents and Notaries choſen, two on each ſide; and withall, an Oath was required, That nothing ſhould be revealed of the matters in conference, before it were imparted to Caeſar, and States of the Empire: which the Proteſtant Diſputants could not agree unto, becauſe their Princes had required of them from time to time42 to write unto them, how things proceeded in the Colloquie: Whereupon is was ſoon after broken up.
About that time,
ccMelch. Adamus in vita Fred. Mycon. à p. 171, ad 175. Fredericus Myconius diſputed with John Tecelius the Popes Factor for ſale of Pardons; betwixt whom, the Queſtion was not about the lawfulneſs or validity of them, but abut the ſelling of them: For Myconius would have had a Pardon a freecoſt, but Tecelius would not allow him one upon ſuch eaſie terms, and ſo he was without one. Anno 1549.
ddFox Martyr, vol. 2. p. 756. col. 2. Mr. Fox ſaid, he had ſo many Diſputations in his hands, and ſome of them ſo long, as all together would make a Volume. And he ſetteth down at large Peter Martyrs Syllogiſtical Diſputation againſt Tranſubſtantiation at OxfordeeIbid. à p. 760 to 778. ; and three Diſputations held at Cambridge the ſame year: That of Peter Martyr is noted by Sleydan alſo, and well approved of.
There was a Conference at Poiſy in France, in the time of Charles IX.Anno 1560. French Hiſt. p. 737. ſee of this diſput. Peter Mart. 54 Epiſt. which is to Bullinger, p. 154. Counc. of Tren. Anno 1561. which began the 9 of Septemb. and was finiſhed about the 5 of Novemb. ffBucolz. Chron. p. 602. Bucolzerus ſaith, it was betwixt the Cardinal of Lorain and Theodore Beza. ggThe Hiſt. of the Counc. of Tr. l. 5. p. 453, 454.The Hiſtory of the Councel of Trent ſaith, there was with him Peter Martyr, and that theſe two were the chief. ThehhFrench Hiſt. of Serres, p. 737 French Hiſtory, beſides them, nameth Auguſtine, Marlorat, Francis of S. Paul, Raymond, and John Viril, with others, to the numbar of 12 Miniſters, and 22 Deputies of the Proteſtant Churches, who offered a Petition to the King at his firſt entry, To examine the Confeſſion of their Faith; That the King would be Preſident with his Councel; That the Clergy being parties, ſhould not take upon them the Authority of Judges; That all Controverſies might be determined by the Word of God; That two Secretaries choſen on either ſide might examine the Diſputations that were daily written; and that they ſhould not be received, but ſigned by either part. Theſe conditions, with little difference, are ſet down both in the French Hiſtory, and the Hiſtory of the Councel of Trent, in the places ſore-noted: but in other particulars their Obſervations are different, though not diſſentient. iiHiſt. of the Counc. of Trent ib. l. 5. p. 451.The Cardinal of Lorain likewiſe deſired the Kings preſence in the publick Aſſembly, that it might be more frequent and adorned, to make oſtentation of his worth, promiſing himſelf a43 certain victory. Many of the Divines would have perſwaded the Queen not to ſuffer the King to be preſent, that thoſe tender years might not be envenomed by peſtiferous Doctrine: but he was preſent, and in a ſhort speech, as he was inſtructed, made an Exhortation to correct the things that were amiſs, deſiring they ſhould not depart till all differences were compoſed. Before they entred into open Conference, the Cardinal of Lorain would treat privately with Beza, before the Queen, Mother; and having heard him, eſpecially upon the Lord, Supper,kkSerres French Hiſt. ubi ante. I am greatly contented, ſaid he, with it; and hope aſſuredly, that the iſſue of this Conference will be happy, proceeding with mildneſs and reaſon.
Afterwards, when the Cardinals of Lorain and Turnon endevoured to make delays in the Conference, the Queen bade Beza begin; who having praid upon his knees, and deprecated the imputations of turbulency and ſedition from himſelf and his party, he declared in what they did agree with the Church of Rome, and in what they did diſſent, touching Faith, Good Works, Authority of Councels, of Eccleſiaſtical Diſcipline, Obedience to Magiſtrates, of the Sacraments, and entring into the matter of the Euchariſt: But he ſpake with ſuch heat, (ſaithllHiſt. of the Councel of Trent, 1.5. p. 452. the Author of the Trent Hiſtory) as gave little ſatisfaction to them of his own party, but provoked the Prelates to high diſdain and indignation. The Congregation being aſſembled again, the Cardinal of Lorain made a long Oration, concluding, when any particular Church is in an errour, recourſe muſt be had to the Church of Rome, The Decrees of General Councels, Conſent of the ancient Fathers; and above all, to the Scripture expounded in the ſenſe of the Church. When he had made an end, all the Biſhops ſtood up, and ſaid, If the Proteſtants will ſubſcribe to this Article, they will not refuſe to diſpute the reſt: but if not, they ought not to have any more audi•nce, but to be chaſed out of the whole Kingdom. Beza asked leave to anſwer preſently: but it ſeemed not fit to equalize a private Miniſter to ſo great a Prince Cardinal; and ſo the Aſſembly was diſſolved. The Prelates were willing that the Colloquie ſhould have been that ended; but the Biſhops of Valence told them it was diſhonourable. Therefore on the 24 day it was again aſſembled in preſence of the Queen and44 Princes, wherein Beza ſpake of the Church, Conditions, and Authority thereof; Of Councels, Of the dignity of the Scriptures: So the Hiſtory of Trent hit themmSerres Hiſtory of France p. 738. French Hiſtory that day; Beza made anſwer to the Cardinal, and diſputed with Espenceus and Sainctes: and v. 26. he treated with him again of the Lords Supper; the other Miniſters likewiſe replied to ſome Objections of other Doctors of the Sorbon, and finally all was converted into private Conferences, without any reſolution or concluſion that might end theſe troubles.
By the appointment of Sigiſmu•d King of Poland,Anno 1566. there was a Diſputation appointed betwixt the new Arrians, and thoſe who profeſſed the contrary Faith unto them, at Petricovia in Poland. Here there was ſomewhat to do about Preſidentſhip, whether there ſhould be one or more; which was reſolved, that by turns one of each ſhould preſide: and being Papiſts who managed the diſpute againſt the Arrians, they choſe him for the Scribe who had been a Scribler againſt Calvin for hisnnCalv. Opuſe. p. 682, 683, 684. ad fratres Polonos. Epiſtles ad fratres Polonos. The Arrians would not yield to ſay Amen to the prayer of their oppoſites, becauſe they would not acknowledge a God in Trinity of Perſons. After this they ſoon brake off without any fruit of their Conferences, asooPoſſevin. Biblioth. Select. Tom. 1. c. 13. p. 363. Anno. 1572. Poſſevine, who ſetteth down the diſpute, reporteth.
From that year to 1590,ppAnt. Poſſev. Apparat. Sacer vol. 1. p. 480. Poſſevine gives a Liſt of 21 Diſputations of ſeveral Popiſh Points, held in ſeveral Popiſh Univerſities; but they were but ſuch Diſputations as Bellarmines at Rome, without a perſonal opponent; or if with one, not real and ſerious, but onely perſonated.
Staniſlaus Roſcius,Anno 1574. Melch. Adam. in vita Bullingeri. p. 502. as I have obſerved in the 1 Chapter, that he may reproch the Religion of the Proteſtants for want of unity, alledgeth, That from the Diſputation at Lipſia, Anne 1519. to their Synod in Vilna, 1590. they have had above 100 Meetings, Conferences, Diſputations, Councels and Synods, and yet cannot reconcile themſelves to one another; wherein he ſheweth himſelf a malicious and ſlanderous Papiſt: and to ſpeak with reference torrFerrar. Lexic. Geogr. p. 432. col. 1. fin. Vilna in Sarmatia a chief City of Lithuania in Poland, where Roſcius was an Abbot; it was at Vilna where the JeſuitſſBucolz. chron. p. 778. Anno 1584. Scarga rang the Bell to a Pariſian Maſſacre of the Proteſtants of that City, where for their too good45 agreement in the truth in their conceits, they would make them agree in tribulation for it under their remorſleſs cruelty: though I confeſs the diſſention I finde in divers of their meetings is ſo much, that I am loth to mention them.
Betwixt theſe two Chronological terms,Anno 1586. Biblioth. Parv. Tom. 1. Graec. & Lat. à p. 194, ad 272. there was publiſh'd a diſpute betwixt Gregentius Archiepiſc. Tophrenſis (ſo he is called) with Herbanus a Jew; wherein Gregantius argueth copiouſly and vigorouſly for the Chriſtian againſt the Jewiſh Religion.
Philip Mornay Lord of Pleſſies, Governor of Saumur,Anno 1600. Joh. de Serres gen. Hiſt. of France, much augmented out of approved Authors, by Edw. Grimſ. p. 1052. accuſed by the B ſhop of Eureux to have committed 500 falſhoods in his Book againſt the Maſs, preſented a Petition to K. Henry IV. That his Majeſty would be pleaſed to appoint Commiſſioners to examine every paſſage of Scripture cited in his Book. The King yielded to his motion, and on the fourth of May appointed a Conference betwixt them, which began that day in the great Hall at Fountainbleau: Who were the Commiſſioners, and in what equipage they were placed there, is fully ſet down in the general Hiſtory of France, written by John Serres in the Reign of Henry IV. B fore the Diſputation began, it was declared, That it ſhould not bring into debate matters of Doctrine of either Religion, but onely be confined to the Exceptions of the Biſhop, and the Anſwers of the Lord Mornay made unto them: Who firſt promiſed in the general,Ibid. that "his hope was, That when he ſhould be equally examined, all men ſhould finde, that he had carried himſelf faithfully and diligently; although it were not to be held ſtrange, if in five thouſand paſſages or more, they have found ſome wherein his eye, his memory, or his judgement hath wavered. Oh, ſaid he, that the Books of the Roman Church which have been written within this hundred years were examined with this rigour! how many ſhould you find that could endure this Trial? Finally, he profeſſed, that, with his Majeſties leave, this act was particular, and could not prejudice the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches of that Realm, which had been before him, and ſhould be after him. And ſo they entred into the matter. ““French Hiſt. p. 1053.But after the firſt days debate Mornay fell very ſick, ſo the diſpute in that manner proceeded no further. Whereof we ſhall ſpeak more in the next Chapter.
46The Diſputes of Peter de Moulin with the Jeſuites and other Papiſts in France, are too many to be brought into this Catalogue, wherein I deſire to be brief: as alſo thoſe of D. Featly, our acute Countryman, both in England and in France.
Anno 1603. was the Conference or Diſputation at Hampton Court before King James: ThewwThe firſt days conference at Hampton Court, p. 1, 2. parties of oppoſite opinions were on the one ſide the Archbiſhop of Canterbury, the Biſhops of London, Durham, Wincheſter, Worceſter, St. Davids, Chicheſter, Carliſle, and Peterborough; the D•ans of the Chappel, Worceſter, Weſtminſter, Pauls, Cheſter, Windſor, with Dr. Field, and Dr. King Archdeacon of Notingham: and on the other, Dr. Reynolds, Mr. Spa•k•, Mr. Knewſtubs, and Mr. Chaderton, Agents for the Millenary plaintiffs, as Dr. Barlow Dean of Cheſter (the partial Penman of that Conference) calleth them; not that they were Chiliaſts or Millenaries, as many are by a miſtaken ſenſe of Revel. 20.6. but becauſe they agreed much with them who exhibited a Petition to the King with the Subſcription of a thouſand Miniſters. The matters diſliked or queſtioned, were reduced by Dr. Reynolds the Fore-man, to theſe**Ibid. p. 23. four Heads.
Firſt, that the Doctrine of the Church might be preſerved in purity, according to Gods Word.
Secondly, that good Paſtors might be planted in all places to preach the ſame.
Thirdly, that Church government might be ſincerely miniſtred, according to Gods Word.
Fourthly, that the Book of Common-prayer might be fitted to more increaſe of piety.
Doctor Francis Write had two Diſputations with Fiſher the Jeſuite;An. 1622. the latter of them in the preſence of King James. With the ſame Jeſuite Dr. Laud then Biſhop of St. D•vids had a diſpute alſo, which are printed, together with Dr. Whites Reply to Jeſuite Fiſhers Anſwer,An. 1624. and the four days Conference betwixt the Jeſuite and his oppoſites appointed by the State; and of Dr. Reynolds with Mr. Hart, all in the Tower of London, and publiſhed at large in print, I deſire rather to commend to the rending of a judicious Proteſtant, than to abbreviate any thing out of them.
47Of later times, eſpecially ſince we have been divided into ſo many Sects, we have had (though the Military Sword, God be thanked, be ſheathed) a great deal of Word war; many preſumptuous Challengers to publick diſpute, and ſome too temerarious undertakers of them: whereof divers are in print, and ſome as worthy are not printed, as that of yours and Dr. Grew's encounter with Mr. Kiffin and Mr. Knowls at Coventry. Theſe I purpoſely forbear, becauſe they are many, and the moſt of them are of one and the ſame Argument, the Baptiſm of Infants.
I will conclude this Chapter with a few neceſſary Admonitions to all true Chriſtians.
Firſt, ſince in all Ages Truth hath met with many enemies, that they do not content themſelves with a bare knowledge or belief of it; but that they endevour to be ſo enabled to plead for, when adverſaries riſe up againſt it, that they may ſtand up, and ſtand out in oppoſition to them: and ſo may not onely be able earneſtly to contend for the faith (once delivered to the Saints, Iude 3.) but manfully to defend it.
Secondly, out of the precedent examples we may draw inſtruction for our direction, how to carry on a diſpute, when upon juſt cauſe we are to undertake it, as by that of Michael diſputing with the Devil. We may be cautioned againſt contumelious ſpeeches againſt our Antagoniſt: for he, when he diſputed with the Devil about the Body of Moſes, durſt not bring againſt him a railing accuſation, Jude 9. And from our Saviours encounter with Satan, we may be directed with what weapon, chiefly, to manage our ſpiritual warfare, even with the ſword of the ſpirit, the word of God, as he did; and therewith put his enemy to flight. From the paſſionate exceſſes of ſome Diſputants obſerved in this Catalogue, we may be admoniſhed of moderation and meekneſs of ſpirit; that by ſuffering our paſſions to become rampant, we make not our Judgements to be couchant. Other particulars I ſhall make uſe of, eſpecially in proſecution, and completing of the ſixth Chapter, when I come unto it.
IT is the obſervation ofyyAug. Thuan. apud Melch. Adam in vita Pet•i Boquini, p. 146. Lorinus in Act. Apoſt. cap. 9. v. 29. at. p. 422. Poſſev. Bibliot. ſelect. tom. 1. c. 13. p. 365. divers learned man, that conflicts in matters of Religion have for the moſt part been fruitleſs of good effects, and ſometimes that they have brought forth much evil fruit. For example: The Collation, Conference or Diſputation of Catholicks with the Donatiſts, though it were fairly carried againſt them, and that by the Teſtimony of the Judge, who was conſtituted as Moderator in the cauſe, yet they would not acknowledge themſelves convinced; and when the ſentence of the Judge was produced againſt them, they raiſed a ſlanderous report againſt him and their Antagoniſts,zzDicunt judicē fuiſſe proemio corruptū. Aug. Collat. cum Donatiſt. tom. 7. part. 1. p. 726. as if they had corrupted him with bribes to paſs an honourable ſentence on their ſide: which occaſioned Auguſtine to write a Confutation of them after the publick Collation with them.
And in his particular Diſputation with Poſcentius a Nobleman, and an Arian Heretick; when he was ſhamefully foiled, he vain-gloriouſly gave out,aaAug. ab ipſo ſuperatū Aug. Epiſt. Poſcent. Ep. 174. tom. 2. p. 898. that he had gotten the victory of Auguſtine. But the Examples of our own State and later times may be more for our inſtruction and caution: And we have but too good proof of very bad effects of Conferences or Diſputations with Papiſts;bbSo in the Dean of Pauls and Dean of Windſors Epiſtle before the Report of the Conference with Campian, printed ann. 1583. as in the year 1581. when Campian that Thraſonical Champion of the Romiſh Church, of whom we have made mention before, when diſcovered by his Antagoniſts to be a man of confident undertakings, and impotent performances, yet Reports and Pamphlets were ſpread abroad every where by his party, as though Campian, like ſome great Bear or Lion, had ſhaken his Adverſaries off, like cowardly Curs one after another.
49What followed upon the diſputes with the Jeſuite Fiſher, and a third with Dr. Laud, the Biſhop of Saint Davids, with the ſameccOf Doctor Whites reply to the Jeſuite Fiſher, p. 8, 9. Fiſher, Dr. White ſheweth in his Epiſtle to the Reader, in theſe words, His Majeſty had experience of the unfaithful dealing of Pontificians, when they make relation of ſuch things as paſs by word of mouth onely in private Diſputations; and he well underſtood how the Cretizing Jeſuite had dealt with a reverend Biſhop, and with my ſelf; for had we been School-boys of thirteen years old, he could not have made us ſeem more childiſh and unskilful then he did; diſperſing hundreds of papers to his own praiſe, and to our diſgrace.
But ſuch lying reports will, at long running, turn to the diſgrace of thoſe that divulge them: and that the more, by how much they are the more notoriouſly untrue; as that fiction of theirs of D. Featly his diſpute with the ſame Fiſher, who was ſuch a buſie & pragmatical Jeſuite, as to be found fiſhing for ſilly ſouls in many places: With him the Doctor being drawn to diſpute (by one Mr. Buggs, who in his ſickneſs was ſollicited to ſet up his reſt for ſalvation in the Romiſh Religion) and the diſpute ended:(d)(d)The Romiſh Fiſher caught and held in his own net by Doctor Featly, in the Preface to the Relation of the conference, June 27. An. 1623. p. 3. About a week after the Earl of Warwick, who was preſent at it, having occaſion to paſs over the Seas, and coming to Saint Omers, had the company of Doctor Weſton at his Inne, to whom this Doctor, taking the Earl for a Roman Catholick, told for freſh and moſt hapyy news out of England, That at a conference betwixt Father Fiſher and Weſton, ſweet Jeſuites, and two Proteſtant Miniſters, the Jeſuites had quitted themſelves ſo well, and the Catholicks Faith prevailed ſo far, that two Earls, and one hundred others of the auditory were joyned to the Church of Rome with this encounter of thoſe two Earls. The party to whom he ſpake, was one who could not but ſmile at this relation; for there**Ibid. p. 6. were not near an hundred of both parties in all at the conference, whereof twenty were profeſſed Papiſts, and known Recuſants; and for the reſt, which were Noble men, Gentlemen, and Gentlewomen of quality, with ſome few Divines, there was not any one of them any way ſtaggered in Religion by this meeting: but on the contrary, they have openly profeſt that they were much eſtabliſhed and confirmed in the Proteſtant Religion by it; and Mr. Doctor Featlys Refutation of an Anſwer to the Book intituled the Fiſher, &c. p. 130.Buggs himſelfe, whoſe ſatisfaction by this conference was principally intended, who50 before had doubted of our Church, gave thanks after the Disputation to Sir Humph. Lynde for the meeting, and aſſured him that he was well reſolved now of his Religion, that he ſaw plainly it was but the Jeſuites bragging without proofs; and whereas formerly by their Sophiſtical perſwaſions, be was in ſome doubt of the Church, he is now ſo fully ſatisfied of the truth of our Religion, that he doth utterly diſclaim the Popiſh Prieſts company, and their Doctrine alſo.
Though it be a wicked thing to lye (albeit it were for a good intent, yea, for the glory of God, Iob 13.7. Rom. 3.7, 8. and no wickedneſs as ſuch, is matter of laughter, but rather of ſorrow) yet they mingle ſuch folly and abſurdity with their lying, as the Prieſts of Baal did with worſhipping of their Idol, that they deſerve to be derided for it, as they were by the Prophet Elijah, 1 King. 18.26, 27. and the more, becauſe it is frequent with them, and by ſome of the approved as a pious fraud: but ſometimes their malignity produceth ſad effects, eſpecially of publick diſputes; as is obſervable concerning the Diſpute of that Illuſtrious and Incomparable man, the Lord Morney, as DoctoreeIlluſtri & incomparabili viro Domino Philippo Mornayo, &c. Epiſt. dedicat. praefix. Critic. Sacr. Rivet calls him, and the Biſhop of Eureux at Fountainbleau forementioned; the Noble and Learned Lord confiding in the truth of his Allegations, which were excepted againſt, as hath been ſaid, wanting the uſe of his own Library, and forced to make uſe of his Adverſaries Books: they brought him one Book over night of one Edition, another in the morning of another; and withal, asffDoctor Sutlives Anſwer to Parſons, l. 3. c. 12. and out of him Mr. Birkbeck in his Anſwer to the Antidotiſt, added to the ſecond Edition of the Proteſtants Evid. p. 474. ſome have written, put a powder into the places quoted, the ſmell whereof was like to have coſt him his life: that hegSerres French Hiſt. Anno 1600. p. 1053. fell very ſick upon the firſt days conference, ſo as they could proceed no farther, is teſtified in the report of their Diſpute in the French Hiſtory; and ſome of his Adverſaries ſpake ſuſpiciouſly of his ſickneſs, as if it were more in his mind then in his Body, being aſtoniſſhed with the ſucceſs of the praludium of that dayes Velitation, whichhPleſſaeus attonitus ſucceſſu praecedentis velitationis apud Gisbertum Voetium de deſperata cauſa papatus, l. 3. ſect. 2. p 681. col. 2. Gisbertus Voetius diſproves: and concerning the cauſe of his diſeaſe, he ſaith nothing of poyſon, becauſe he takes it from ſuch Authors of51 the Popiſh party, as if they knew it to be true, would rather conceal it if they could, then let it come abroad into the world. But the matter is probable enough;
Firſt, becauſe there are ſuch poyſons, as will not onely make one ſick, but kill him too, though he neither eat them nor drink them; as by anointing the leaves of a book with poyſon, wherebyiiBerkbeck ex Binfield ubi ante. Averroes is ſaid to have killed Avicen; by poyſoning of clothes, arms, ſeats, ſaddles, whereofkkJoh. Mariana de Rege, &c. l. 1. c. 7. p. 67. Mariana the Jeſuite ſhewes many examples in his book De Rege, and Regis Inſtitutiones; yea, a man may be killed by carrying a poyſoned Torch:llAnno 1574. Carolus Cardinalis Lotharingiae diem obiit non ſine ſuſpicione veneni, facis per noctent praelatae peſtifero odore cerebro corrupto. Bucolz. Index. chronol. p. 638. ex Thuano. ſo was the Cardinal of Loraine, a great and buſie man in the Councel of Trent, poyſoned with the ſmoke of a Torch carried before him in the night.
Secondly, it is not improbable, that ſome of the Lord Morney or Pleſſes enemies might both know that there were ſuch poyſons, and where to procure them, and how to apply them;Haereticis obſtinatis beneficium eſt quod de hac vita tollantur; nam quò diutiùs vivunt cò plures errores excogitāt, plures pervertunt, & ma jorem ſibi damnationem acquirunt. Bellarm. Tom. 2. l. 3. dc Laicis c. 21. verbis ultimis. for it ſeems by that we now noted of the Cardinal of Loraine (which fell out An. 47.15. ) that deſtructive arts were neither unknown, nor unpracticed at that time; and the diſpute betwixt the L. M. and the Biſhop of Eureux was 26. years after. Any ſuch wickedneſs is the more probable of a Papiſt againſt a Proteſtant, becauſe of the Popiſh Doctrine, which is this, it is a benefit for obſtinate Hereticks to be taken out of this life, for the longer they l•ve, the more errors they invent, and the more they pervert, and procure to themſelves the greater damnation. It was not to be expected, but the diſputation being broken off by the L. M. his occaſion, the Papiſts would inſult and report whatſoever might make for their own glory, and his diſparagement, as indeed they did; but how poorly the Popiſh Biſhop began to make good his charge and challenge againſt the L. M. the learned Reader may ſee by that whichmmGisbert. Voetius de deſperata cauſa papatus l. 3. Sect. 2. c. 10. à p. 680, ad 692. Giſbert Voetius hath written of it in his Book Of the deſperate cauſe of the Papacy, and by the excellentnA refutation of calumnious relation of the conference of Monſieur Pleſſis, and Monſieur of Eureux by one againſt N. D. I. P. 3. part printed by Arn. Hatfield, An. 1600. Refutation of the Tract ſet out by the L. M. after the Diſpute for his own juſt defence,52 to which the Biſhop his AdverſaryooPerronus ad illum librum nunquam reſpondit. Ibid. And this was 35. years after, for Voetius his book was printed An. 1655. and the diſpute was An. 1600. and this Apologet. Treat. ſoon after. never made any anſwer.
But the moſt certain and remarkable iſſue or effect of this Diſpute was, thatppSerres French Hiſtory ad Ann. 1600. p. 1053. Canoy one of the Commiſſioners for the Diſpute, Preſident in the Chamber of the Edict at Charters, left his profeſſion of the Reformed Religion, and became a Romiſh Catholick; many thought that Caſaubon the other Proteſtant Commiſſioner, and Greek Reader to King H. the Fourth, would have followed the ſame courſe; but he left not the world long in this opinion, having written to the Synod of Miniſters aſſembled at Gargean, that he was not ſo wretchedly inſtructed in piety, as that for want of knowledge of the truth, he ſhould ſuffer himſelf to be carried away with every humour of Doctrine.
The cauſes of ſo little good ſucceſs of Debates, Diſputes, Conferences, or Controverſies of Religion, betwixt parties of oppoſite opinions are divers; in ſome the prevalent power of fanſie or imagination above judgement, is the cauſe, that Arguments, whether artfiicial of reaſon, or inartificial of teſtimony, will work little upon prejudicated fancy: of the various working whereof we may read many obſervable particulars in the learned diſcourſe of Picus Earl of Mirandula, ofrrJo. Picus Mirandula lib. de imaginatione, vol. 2. operum p. 91. praecip. c. 7, 8, 9. that Title.
Secondly, With ſome, cuſtome is a great obſtacle againſt the receiving of truth: and thence it is that thoſe who have been trained up in untruth from their Child-hood, are with greateſt difficulty convinced of it, or converted from it. We may ſee the refractorineſs of this reſiſtance in Peter, Acts 10. who, when v. 12,13. a viſion was preſented unto him, ſhewing him ſeveral kinds of creatures, clean and unclean, and he had a command to kill and eat, v. 13. Not ſo v. 14. Lord (ſaid he) why ſo Peter? he gives this reaſon of his refuſal, though the command came from Heaven; becauſe of his cuſtomary forbearance of forbidden meats, I have never eaten any thing that is common and unclean.
Thirdly, With othersssPrava vel honoris, vel pecuniae cupiditas animos diſputantium invaſit, ut tanquam in pugna ſola ſpectaretur victoria•Ludov•Vives de cauſis corrupt. artium, l. •. p. 38. a corrupt cupidity of glory or gaint is a great cauſe of their ſtanding out againſt clear diſcoveries; ſuch will not yield to verity, ſo long as they can with confidence53 and impudence make any ſhew or appearance of victory, or outface the foil they have taken in diſpute.
Fourthly, Some withſtand the truth in unrighteouſneſs, principally out of hatred and diſdain of their Adverſaries, leſt it ſhould be thought, that by them they were brought to yield unto it: this was the humour of the Arch-Biſhop and Cardinal of Capua, who would yield to reform nothing, though many corruptions were diſcovered,ttNicol. Archiepiſ, Capuanus, Magna contentione clamabat ne quid omnino reformaretur, ne Lutherani jactent quaſi ab ipſis propemodum adacti illud fecerint. Job. Sl•idan Comment. l. 12. p. 242. An. 1538. left the Lutherans ſhould brag that they had been brought to reformation by them.
Fifthly, Some account it their credit to be no changelings, eſpecially in Religion; not knowing the difference betwixt conſtancy and obſtinacy.
Sixthly, And oft times it falls out, that by the ſubtilty or eloquence of Diſputants, when they are ſomewhat evenly matched, the Auditory is kept pendulous, or irreſolute; even he, perhaps, for whoſe ſake the Diſpute or Conference was undertaken, asuuIlle cujus cauſa in congreſſum deſcendis Scripturarum, ut cum dubitantem confirmes ad veritatem an nagis ad haereſim deverget, hoc ipſo motus, quod te videat nihil promoviſſe aequo gradu negandi & defendendi, certe de pari & altercatione incertior diſcedit, neſciens quem Haereticum judicet. Ter•ul. praeſcript. adverſ. haereticos Tom. 1. c. 18. p. 170. Tertull. ſheweth; He, ſaith Tertullian, for whoſe cauſe thou deſcendeſt into a Controverſie of Scripture, that thou maiſt confirm him againſt doubting, it is hard to ſay whether he tend more to Verity or to Hereſie, becauſe he ſees thou prevaileſt nothing, the diſpute going on in an equal degree of denying and defending: certainly by ſuch a parity in altercation he will depart more uncertain, not knowing what he ſhould judge to be Hereſie.
Seventhly, When Conferences and Diſputations in Religion ſucceed not ſo well as good men would have them, is, becauſe they are not ordered or managed in ſuch a manner as they ſhould be; whereof I ſhall ſpeak in the next Chapter, as in its p•oper place. In the mean time this good order will require, that I now obſerve, what good ſucceſs hath been the iſſue of ſome diſputations betwixt Michael and the Devil in Iude, Chriſt and the Devil, Matth. 4. By the way, ſome take Michael the Arch-Angel for Chriſts Son, for a created Angel to me it is, which I will now neither determine nor diſcuſs: and for the54 diſputes of Stephen and Paul, they muſt needs have the better of their adverſaries, becauſe they were not able to reſiſt the Wiſdome and the Spirit by which they ſpake, Act. 6.10. not with any evidence of truth, or appearance of reaſon: yet when the truth was moſt illuſtriouſly ſet forth, ſome were ſo blinded and hardned with their own malice and envy, that they could not ſee it, or would not confeſs themſelves to be convinced by it; is, as when our Saviour had mightily and miraculouſly proved himſelf to be the Son of God by caſting out Devils, the Devil would not ſuffer his Adverſaries to acknowledge it, but ſtirred them up to impute the power of the holy Spirit to Beelzebub the Prince of Devils, Matth. 12.24. And when Athanaſius had a Diſputation with Arius, he would not yield that the power of Truth had prevailed, butwwArius in quit nulli dubium eſt quin magicis artibus Athanaſius non deſinat judicum pervertere ſenſus, &c. Athanaſ. diſp. contra Arium Laodiceae, tom. 2. col. 393. moſt abſurdly ſuggeſted, that he managed his cauſe by Magical Arts.
Notwithſtanding the iſſues and effects of ſome Diſputations have been more ſucceſsful (beſides thoſe which were carried on by a Divine Power againſt Humane or Devilliſh malignity) as that of Octavius a Chriſtian, with Cecilius an Heathen, ſet forth by Minutius Felix; whereof we have obſerved before, that ſome take that for a real ſtory, ſome for a pious diſcourſe compoſed by Minutius himſelf Dialogue-wiſe, under the borrowed names ofxxCaecilium ſuperſtitioſis vanitatibus etiamnum inhaerentem diſputatione graviſſima ad veram religionem reformavit Octavius: ſic Minutius Felix Concluſ. Dialog. Tom. 9. Bibliothec. Patrum, col. 22. Octavius a Chriſtian, and Cecilius an Heathen: the effect whereof, whether it were hiſtoricall, or poeticall, or moral, was ſuch as was anſwerable to ſuch convincing premiſes, viz. that Cecilius converted by Octavius from ſuperſtitious vanities, they parted with mutual congratulation, and Minutius thereby accounted himſelf Felix,yPoſt haec laeti hilareſquediſceſſimus; Caecilius quod crediderit, Octavius quod vicerit, ego quod ille crediderit, hic vicerit, Ibid. rejoycing with and for them both.
zEuſeb. Eccleſ. Hiſt. l. 6. p. 32.Euſebius andaHierom. Catal. Script. Eccleſ. tom. 1. p. 292. Hierome make report of Beryllus Biſhop of55 Boſtra in Arabia, that he fell from the faith to ſtrange doctrine of the Divinity and Humanity of Chriſt; but conferring with Origen, was convicted by manifeſt proof, and recovered to his former ſound opinion. The effect of the Diſpute betwixtbbBaron. Annal. tom. 2. ad ann. 277. parag. 16. Archelaus and Manes was rather the confuſion of the Heretick then his converſion; for he run away from his Antagoniſt when he had convinced him, and would not appear in his ſight any more. And though Auguſtine ſometimes wholly loſt his labour in conflict with Hereticks, who continued contumacious and clamorous againſt the Truth and him: yet ſometimes he was very ſucceſsful in his Diſputations with them; ſometimes as Origen was with Beryllus,ccAug. fin. l. 2. de Artis cum foelice Manich. tom 6. p. 657. as when he brought Felix the Manichean Heretick to a Recantation of his Errour, and ſubſcription againſt it: ſometimes as Archelaus, when he diſputed with Manes, whoſe foil and flight I have noted in another Chapter: As when having diſputed with Fortunatus a Manichean, andddPoſſid. in vit•…Aug. c. 6. put him to ſilence, he put him alſo to ſo much ſhame, that he went out of the City of Hippo, and returned thither no more. More might be obſerved of his good ſucceſs, either for converſion or victory, but that I muſt leave a little room for ſome other memorable Examples of like ſort; not to mention that which I had occaſion to bring ineeIbid. c. 4. ad ann. 325. before, of a ſubtile Philoſopher and Logician convinced and converted by a plain old man. We may note next the iſſue of that famous Diſputation betwixt Maximus the Monk, and Pyrrhus the Archbiſhop of Conſtantinople, about theffSee cap. 4. ann. 645. Will of Chriſt; which was, that the Archbiſhop gave way to the Truth propoſed and proved by Maximus. The iſſue of the Diſpute (betwixt Gregentius a Greek Biſhop with Herbanus a Jew) continued about 40 days together,ggTom. 1. Bibli. Patrum Graec, Lat. p. 277. concluded with the converſion of many from the Jews. I will conclude this point of the good ſucceſs of Diſputation with one or two domeſtick•; the one is of Dr. Reynolds conferring or diſputing with Hart in the Tower, who it ſeems in one point of moment was brought to acknowledge a Proteſtant Truth, viz.hhHart in his Epiſt. to the indifferent Reader, p. 2. before the Conference. That the opinion which makes the Pope a Temporal Lord over Kings and Princes, is unreaſonable and unprofitable altogether; for he hath not to meddle with them or their civility, much leſs to depoſe them, or give away their Kingdoms: that's no part of56 his Commiſſion. But the Doctrine ofiiNon licet Chriſtianis tolerare regem infidelem aut haereticum, ſi ille conetur ſubditos ad ſuam haereſim vel infidelitatem pertrahere: ad judicare an rex pertrahat ad haereſim necne, pertinet ad Pontificem cui eſt commiſſa cura Religionis, ergo Pontificis eſt judicare regem eſſe deponendum vel non deponendum. Bellar. de Rom. Pontif. lib. 5. c. 7. tom. 1. p. 351. col. 1. Bellarmine is, (wherein not onely the Jeſuites, but other Zelots for the Papacy follow him) That Chriſtians ought not to tolerate an Infidel or Heretical King, if he endevour to draw his Subjects to Hereſie or Infidelity: but to judge whether the King draw his Subjects to Hereſie or no, belongeth to the Pope, to whom is committed the care of Religion.
So that it belongeth to the Pope to try whether he be to be depoſed or not.
But had the learned and religious Doctor prevailed nothing at all with his Adverſary, but that Hart had been ſo hardened in all Popiſh Errors, as to renounce none of them, as he did what he could by Sophiſms and Lies, by Fraud and Falſhood to out-face the Truth, askkConfer. c. 7. diviſ. 7. p. 377. Dr. Reynolds juſtly chargeth him; yet we cannot but account it an happy effect of their Diſpute, that it produced in print ſo excellent a Book as the Report of that Conference is, ſo full of all kinde of Learning pertinently applied, and meeting with the ſhuffling ſhifting Papiſts at every turn.
Though in this reſpect this Conference proved in the iſſue and effect of it better than was expected, yet it is more ſtrange, and ſuch as the like hath ſeldome hapned, which fell out upon the Diſpute of him and his Brother William:““Mr. Fullers Church-Hiſt. of Great Brit. l. 10 p. 47. 48. John Reynolds, Mr. Harts Antagoniſt, at the firſt was a zealous Papiſt, whilſt William his Brother was as earneſt a Proteſtant; and afterwards providence ſo ordered it, that by their mutual Diſputation John Reynolds turned an eminent Proteſtant, and William an inveterate Papiſt, in which perſwaſion he died. This gave the occaſion to an excellent Copy of Verſes, concluding with this Diſtich:
The ſucceſs of the Diſpute betwixt Dr. Featly and Fiſher both good and bad, I have obſerved already in this Chapter. And ſo much may ſuffice for the iſſues and effects of Colloquies, Conferences and Diſputes in matters of Religion.
THough nothing be many times more raſhly undertaken than a diſpute of Religion, yet in nothing is more prudence and caution required than in that, that it may be managed to the beſt advantage for victory on the Truths ſide. And therefore where there is an aſſociation of Miniſters, it will be agreeable to their goodneſs and wiſdome, to joyn in a reſolution not to enter the Liſts of publick Diſputation with any, though provoked, without a ſerious conſultation of the Brotherhood, to deliberate,
Firſt, Whether the matter be fit to be diſputed or no.
Secondly, Concerning the perſons who are to be actors in it, or preſent at it.
Thirdly, What ſhall be the Laws and Conditions of Diſpute.
Firſt, whether the matter be fit to be diſputed or no:aa〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 31. tom. 1. q. 531. Gregory Nazianzen propoundeth it as matter of ſpecial conſideration, that we diſpute not of matters which are above the model of our own wits, and the Auditors apprehenſion and ability to conceive. The EmperourbSozomen. Hiſtor. Eccleſ. lib. 7. c. 6. Gratian would not allow the Arrians to diſpute of God, and therefore by an eſpecial Law forbade58 ſuch Diſputations, becauſe the Myſtery of the Trinity is a Myſtery of Faith far above the reach of Humane Reaſon. In lower and moreccDe vulgaribus rebus diſputantem aliquem vinci minime gravè eſt; ne que enim omnis eſt, &c. graviſſimum autem eſt divinitatem detrimento affici, camqueſophiſtis prodere. Elias Cretenſ. Comment. in Nazianz. orat. 23. tom. 2. col. 852. vulgar matters for a man to be overcome or gravell'd, as Elias Cretenſis noteth upon Nazianzen, is no great matter, becauſe every one hath not the art of disputing or ſolving of Sophiſms; but it is a ſad thing for the Divinity of God or Chriſt to be disparaged, and as it were to be betraid into the hands of Sophiſters. The Heathens were wary in preſerving the reverence of Religion, that they held itdMala & impia conſuetudo eſt contra Deos diſputandi, ſive ex animo id fit ſive ſimulatè. Cicer. de natur. Deor. lib. 2. an evil and impious cuſtome to diſpute of their gods, whether an adverſary or in good earneſt.
Though he who hath this fundamental infidelity in his heart, may be diſputed out of his Atheiſm by ſecret conference, yet it is no way lawful to enter the Liſts of publick Diſputation with an Atheiſt, as if it were a problematical point whether there were a God or no; no more meet is it to entertain a publick diſpute with Antiſcripturiſts, eſpecially now, ſince hiseeThe humble Petition and Advice to His Highneſs the L. Protector, &c. p. 27, 28, 29. Highneſs the Lord Protector, his Councel, and the Members of the Parl•ament, take an Oath To uphold and maintain the true Reformed Proteſtant Chriſtian Religion in the purity thereof, according to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, and to incourage the profeſſion and profeſſors of the ſame. Nor will it, as I conceive, be fit to admit the Arminians to a publick Diſpute, eſpecially of Mr. John Goodwyns fancy or faction; as his abſurd and horrible Errours have been lately and lively ſet forth in their colours byffPag. 65, 66, 67, 68, 69. of his ſolid and acute Confutation of Mr. Joh. Goodwyns Calumniatory Cavil in his Book which he calleth〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, or The Triers, &c. Mr. Marchiamont Nedham. And as it is matter of religious piety to forbear ſuch diſputes upon any point as may violate the Majeſty of Religion; ſo I believe it is a civil duty which we owe our Superiours, who are pleaſed to protect Orthodox Religion, not to offer any part of it whereof they take the Patronage, as in the Oath fore-mentioned, and without their licence and allowance in ſuch a way as their prudence ſhall approve of: And it cannot but be matter of great offence and ſcandal to any prudent and pious Chriſtian, to have any fundamental point of Faith once delivered to the Saints, delivered up to be toſſed upon59 the tongues of men; it may be ſuch asggG•eg. Naz. Orat. 33. tom 1. p. 531. Nazianzen taxeth, as making a ſport in a trifling manner to diſpute of divine matters. Nor are ſome queſtions more to be forborn for their ſacred Sublimity, than others for their ridiculous Levity; as, whether according to thehhMulta renaſcentur quae jam cecidere, cad•ntque Quae nu•c ſunt in honore vocabula, ſi volet uſus; Quem penes arbitrium eſt, & jus & norma loquendi. Horat. So the Greek word〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, Tyrannus, was anciently taken for a King in a good ſenſe, when Homer called Jupiter〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉: But for many hundred years ago it hath been taken in an ill ſenſe, Tempore Lucae vocabulum illud Tyrannus tantum accipiebatur in malam partem apud Gaecos & Latinos. Eſtius Act. Apoſtol. 19. v. 9. So the word Idiot in Lukes time was taken onely for one that is unlearned and ignorant. So Peter and John are called〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that is, Unlearned and Idiots, Acts 4.13. And 1 Cor. 14.16. How ſhall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned,〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, of the Idiot; and 23. If there come in thoſe that are ignorant and unbelievers,〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, that is, Idiots and unbelievers. So the word Knave, in Chaucers and Gowers time, and in the Stat. 1. c. 3. ann. 14 of Ed. 3. ſignified a ſervant. See Minſhaws Dictionary, verbo Knave: and the French word Madam, is of that latitude in the proper original ſignification, that any woman that hath a ſervant, may by her ſervant be called Madam. Were it not now an unreaſonable innovation, to go ſo far out of the received uſe of words, as to call a King a Tyrant, an Apoſtle an Idiot, an honeſt Servant a Knave, an ordinary Husbandmans wife Madam? The firſt would be dangerous, the ſecond blaſphemous, the third ſlanderous, the fourth ridiculous, becauſe quite out of uſe in our manner of ſpeech; as the word Thou is, as applied to Superiours in a civil, or rather by the Quakers in an uncivil ſenſe. Law of Language, which is a common uſe, we ſhould ſay You in civility to our Superiours, or Thou unto all, with thoſe proud, rude and railing Levellers, the Quakers: On whoſe abſurd and novel vanity I will here beſtow a marginal Note (h) and no more.
There is another queſtion of note, but neither for the ſuperlative eminency, nor for the extreme lowneſs and lightneſs of it, as that of the Quakers, but for the ſubtilty, unprofitableneſs and impoſſibility to be determined by publick and perſonal diſputation; and that is the captious queſtion of the Papiſts, touching the Viſibility of the Church in all Ages: In which point they have made bold Challenges to the Proteſtants party, who in my poor opinion ſhould rather have diſputed altogether againſt the unreaſonableneſs of the queſtion, than have undertaken the diſcuſſion of it, as Dr. Featly did with Fiſher: For though he ſaid much very learnedly and wittily after his manner,60 partly to ſhew the impertinency of the Propoſal, to prove the Proteſtant Church viſible in all Ages, and to name viſible Profeſſors of Proteſtant Religion in all Ages; and was very cautelous in his diſtinctions and aſſertions, for the framing of his Concluſions to the firſt queſtion, which was, thatiiThe Romiſh Fiſher caught & held in his own Net, part. 1. p. 103. The Proteſtant Church, according to the diſtinctions and aſſertions premiſed, hath been in all Ages in ſome degree viſible: And uſed the like prudential courſe concerning his Concluſion of the latter queſtion, Of the Names of Proteſtant profeſſors in all Ages; yet he undertook to give in a Catalogue of them in every Age, beginning with the Evangeliſts and Apoſtles, and going on from Clemens Romanus to Clemens Alexandrinus, with whom he makes up his ſecond Century. Dr. Featly Romiſh Fiſher caught & held in his own Net, par. 1. p. 8.Of which queſtion himſelf confeſſeth, that it required rather a large Hiſtorical Volume, than a brief Syllogiſtical Diſpute. For what time would be required to bring ſuch a Debate to a ſatisfactory Iſſue? how many dayes diſpute, how many moneths, yea how many years will be taken up in diſtinguiſhing legitimate Writings of the Ancients, from ſuch as are ſpurious or ſuſpected for ſuch even by the Papiſts themſelves, who reckon of thoſe ambiguous Brats no fewer than 187 ſeveral Treatiſes? and then for the legitimate works, how many are corrupted, and which Edition of them is the trueſt? and when that is known, Where ſhall we finde the doctrines in difference betwixt the Papiſts and us diſcuſſed or reſolved, when many of them were altogether unknown in their dayes? For thoſe that ſpeak any thing of the matters in queſtion, it is hard to judge what is their ſetled judgement in any point; for ſometimes they play the Orators, flouriſhing with all figures of Rhetorick, which muſt not be taken in a Dogmatical ſenſe; asllDum eſſem adoleſcens, imo penè puer — Scripſi ad avunculum, ſed in illo opere pro aetate tunc luſimus, & calentibus. adhuc Rhetorum ſtudiis, &c. nunc jam cano capite & arata rugis fronte, &c. Hieron. ad Nepot. Tom. 1. p. 11. princip. Epiſt. Hierome confeſſeth of himſelf in his Epiſtle to Nepotian, While I was a young man, ſaid he, and in a manner a Boy, I wrote unto my Ʋncle Heliodorus, but in that work I did but play with Rhetorical Studies, and painted my paper with a Scholastical flouriſh; now my head is grey, and my forehead furrowed, I write in another manner. Which may give them cauſe in their elder years, to retract and correct what they wrote61 when they were not ſo ripe in judgement being young: So did Auguſtine in his two Books of Retractions. And ſome things they have written in paſſion, violently turning from one extreme to another: So did Dionyſius Alexandrinus; and thereforemmBaſil. Epiſi. 41. Maxim. Philoſoph. Baſil compareth him to a Gardener, who when a bough groweth crooked one way, writhes it to be as crooked they other way. And in examining of theſe humane Teſtimonies, it will require time and judgement to diſtinguiſh particular Opinions from Church-doctrines. Now by that time all aſſertions in difference have been carried through all Ages, with all the diſtinctions and cautions until Luthers time, the Proteſtants bringing their proofs, and the Papiſts theirs, and time allowed for each party to make Exceptions as they pleaſe, how many years will be ſpent, and at laſt how fruitleſs will all this labour be? when if there were ſuch conſent to be found among them, as the Papiſts brag of, it would make but an humane Faith, which might be ſubject to falſhood, asnnQuod hiſtorici quidam meminerint eorum conciliorum, non poteſt parere niſi fidem humanā cui poteſt ſubeſſe falſum. Bellarm. lib. 2•Sacr. offic. c. 25. verbo ult. Tom. 3. Contr. p. 86. Bellarmine confeſſeth. And yet both the ſubtile Jeſuites, and ſilly Papiſts by their Inſtruction, call for this trial of Religion by bringing a Catalogue of Profeſſors in all Ages; on which the Jeſuite Fiſher ſo pertinaciouſly inſiſted,ooThe relation of the Conference, Jun. 27. 1623. p. 28. that he would not anſwer Dr. Featly touching Chriſt and his Apoſtles in the firſt Century, unleſs he firſt brought in a Catalogue of Profeſſors of Proteſtancy throughout all Ages: And which ſhewed his impiety and abſurdity in the higheſt degree, in the Catalogue called for, he wouldppIbid. p. 27. not allow the Doctor to begin with Chriſt and his Apoſtles.
This plainly bewrayed the Jeſuites great diffidence in his crazy cauſe, and his craft to ſecure it from a due trial, which this way he knew could never be effected: and with this fallacy they have locked up their ſeduced Proſelytes in misbelief; ſo that we know not how to deal with them: for they will not hear us in any thing, unleſs we ſpeak to the point of viſibility in all ages; and if we offer to anſwer them in a readier and ſurer way, by the infallible Teſtimony of the Scriptures, they will not accept of it: yet notwithſtanding all the advātage they have had by the predominacy of their power over Perſons, Books & Preſſes, to print and ſuppreſs what they pleaſe: we need not decline that way of trial out of any diſtruſt in our cauſe, ſince there62 is yet ſo much upon record for us, and againſt them; that if ſuch a tedious and dilatory diſcuſſion of our differences were to be undertaken by diſpute face to face, they could be no gayners in the utmoſt iſſue of it, as we may well judge by Mr. Berkbeck in his Proteſtants evidences of the ſecond Edition printed this year in Folio, ſo much amended and augmented above the former in Quarto, that I take it to be the beſt Book extant in that kind.
When upon deliberation a reſolution is made what ſhall be diſputed on;
The next conſideration is concerning the Perſons.
For the Perſons, and they are chiefly,
Firſt for the Diſputants; in them theſe four qualifications are chiefly requiſite:
Firſt, they muſt be learned in the Learned Languages, in Arts, and Hiſtories, in Textual and Polemical Divinity; for they may in conflict be put to it, to make uſe of all the learning they have.
Secondly, They muſt be quick in conceipt, becauſe they muſt preſently without pauſe or ſtudy take their advantage, either of objecting or anſwering.
Thirdly, They muſt be temperate, not paſſionate, or cholerick like Coſterus the Jeſuite; for Coſterus, of whom Doctor Halls obſervation is,Dr. Hall. 1. Decad. of Epiſt. Epiſt. 5. p. 282. that he wa•more teaſty then ſubtile, more able to wrangle then to ſatisfie: for paſſion will blind the judgment, ſo as to make a man leſs fit to make uſe of his own ſtrength, or to take advantage of his Adverſaries weakneſs; beſides, if a man be cholerick, it will make him forget the moderation63 of Michael the Arch-Angel, in forbearing railing accuſations, Jude 9. And the caution ofrrHaec eſt modeſtia diſputantis ut nulla adferatur audientibus ex diſſerentis ſermone moleſtia: Chryſoſt. in Epiſt., ad Hebr. ch. 2. homil. 3 Tom. 4. col. 1679. Chryſoſtom, which is, that the modeſty of the Diſputants ſhould be ſuch, that nothing drop from their mouths which may be offenſive to the ears of the hearers, which doth not only give diſtaſte to them, but takes off much from the acceptation both of the Diſputant and the cauſe diſputed; one that appeared in Beza's diſputation at Poyſie, when though he were an excellent learned man, and pleaded the cauſe of Reformation very ſufficiently againſt the Romaniſts, was taken up and commanded to conclude;ssHiſt. Conci. of Trent, l. 5. p. 453. becauſe in the matter of the Sacrament he grew into an heat, which not only very much provoked the Prelates to indignation and diſdain againſt the new Evangeliſts, as the Cardinal of Tornon called him and his party, but gave ill ſatisfaction to thoſe of his own ſide: but this exorbitancy of paſſion is more familiarly the offence of the Romiſh wranglers, who are choſen of purpoſe by their party for Diſputants, becauſe of their zeal to the cauſe, which kindles quickly into choler, as we have partly obſerved in Eccius and Gretz•r; and may further note in one of Doctor Featleys Antagoniſts (Doctor Eglestone) who was ſo tranſported with paſſion, as to ſay to him,ttThe Romiſh Fiſher caught and held in his own Net, par. 3. p. 128. I will be hanged at the next Gallows if I make you not confeſs that it implies no contradiction, for an accident to be without a ſubject; if he wou'd have ſtood to his word, he had been ſure to be hanged; for it was not in his power to force the Doctor to ſuch a confeſſion.
Fourthly, The Diſputants ought to be pious, that (out of conſcience) they may prefer Verity before Victory. Of this mind doubtleſs was the Apoſtle Paul, when he profeſſed he could do nothing againſtuuVictoriâ nihil dulcius, Cicer. Act. in verrem, fol. 876. the truth, 2 Cor. 13.8. to a corrupt and carnal mind nothing is more ſweet then victory; but if truth appear to have the preeminence, a godly man will not be aſhamed to yield unto it, though with change of his opinion; for he takes not himſelf to be of ſo great authority and fame, as to be aſhamed that he erred, aswwNe erubeſcas de commutatione ſententiae; non es tantae authoritatis & famae, ut erraſſe te pudeat. Hieron. Apolog. adverſ. Ruffin. Tom. 2. p. 199. Hierom ſaid to Ruffinus, do nothing through ſtrife or vain glory, Phil. 2.3. as the Papiſts64 did againſt the Proteſtants in the Councel of Trent,xxHiſt. of the Councel of Trent, l. 1. An. 1530. when as Cardinal Langi Arch-Biſhop of Saltzburg ſaid, that the Reformation of the Maſs was honeſt, the liberty of meats convenient; but that a poor Monk, meaning Luther, ſhould reform all, was not to be endured: ſome conceive it matter of moment, that the Diſputants be matched in quality and calling, as in theyyThe Romiſh Fiſher caught and held in his own Net, p. 3. p. 118, 119. Diſputation betwixt Maſter Walker and Doctor Egleſton.
Before I diſpute upon the queſtion, ſaith Mr. Walker, I deſire to know your quality and calling, whether you be a profeſſed Popiſh Prieſt or no?
Dr. Egleſton. I am a Roman Catholick, not a Prieſt, but a Doctor of Phyſick.
Mr. Walker. I deſire then another Adverſary, ſome of the Prieſts here preſent, that we may diſpute on equal terms; I hold the calling of a Proteſtant Preacher and Divines, more honourable then any Popiſh Prieſthood; and therefore if your Prieſts think themſelves too good to dispute with me, you ſhall not brag that your Laymen are fit matches to dispute with Proteſtant Preachers and Divines.
Dr. Egleſton. Mr. Walker, you being a Divine, ought to give me, though a Lay-man, the beſt ſatisfaction you can.
Mr. Walker, I am ready to give you ſatisfaction, if you come as a Layman, ought to a Divine, that is, with a deſire to hear, and to be instructed in all humility, not with a mind to contradict and oppoſe the truth.
And ſo they proceeded to Diſputation, as in the relation quoted in the Margin; and it may be the Doctor of Phyſick was a better Divine then the Prieſts that were preſent.
Doctor Brian in this reſpect might have had more juſt cauſe of diſdain, to take Mr. Only for his match, then Mr. Walker Doctor Egloston, ſince the diſparity was more betwixt them two, then betwixt a Divine that was not a Doctor, and a Doctor that was not a Divine.
This for the qualification of the Diſputants. Now, ſecondly, for a Moderator, or Preſident, to manage the diſputation with decency and order.
It is requiſite that ſome perſon of worth for wiſdom and65 gravity (and if it may be alſo of power and authority, ſo that his power be not byaſſed by partiality on either ſide) be Preſident and Moderator to mannage the diſputation with order and decency, for prevention of vain jangling and confuſion: when diſputations are national, and particularly authorized by the ſupreme power; that power commonly makes choice of a Preſident, or of Commiſſioners to preſide over the diſputation: ſo did the EmperourzzAug. Breric. Collat. Praefa. Tom. 7. par. 1. p. 684. Honorius, who publiſhed an Edict for diſputation betwixt the Catholicks and Donatiſts at Carthage, and by the ſame Edict ordained one to preſide in the diſputation, who was called a Judge. So did the EmperouraaSleyd. Com. l. 16. p. 353. Charles in the Conference at Ratisbone. In that at Poyſie in France betwixt Beza and the Popiſh party: Beza and thoſe of hisbbHiſt. of the Councel of Trent. l. 5. p. 451. ſide deſired, that the King and his Councel would be preſent to govern the action, with eſpecial exception againſt the Clergy, that none of them might preſide, becauſe they were their profeſſed adverſaries; and ſome of them unwilling that the Proteſtants ſhould be gratified in that requeſt, would have perſwaded the Queen Mother to keep her ſon King Charles away, leſt being young, he ſhould be led away by the plauſibility of error. So in the concertation at Fountainbleau, betwixt the Lord Morney and the Biſhop of Eureux, King Henry the Fourth was prſent and Preſident the firſt day, yet appointed he Commiſſioners, becauſe himſelfe would not be engaged to attend the debate until it were ended; though he did ſo, becauſe it brake off after one day by the ſickneſs of the Lord Morney, as hath been ſaid before. In the publick Diſputations at Oxford and Cambridg, betwixt the Proteſtants and Papiſts, in King Edward the ſixths time, certain Commiſſioners were ſent in the name ofccFox Martyr. vol. 2. p. 756. col. 2. & 760. col. 2. Viſitors, to the number of five to each Univerſity, to overſee the Diſputation orderly carried on, and to make report of it to His Majeſty. In the three dayes conference at Hampton Court, King James himſelf was Preſident, and it was well he was ſo, elſe ſome of the Prelates would have ſoon put to ſilence Doctor Reynolds and his aſſiſtants; for when that Reverend, Religious and Learned Doctor did but modeſtly obſerve addThe ſecond dayes conference at Hampton Court. p. 25. Contradiction in the Service Book about Confirmation, one place confeſſing it was a depraved imitation of the Apoſtles, another grounding it upon their example, Act. 8.9.66 and thereupon deſired that the contradictions might be conſidered, and the ground of conformation examined: the Biſhop of London cut him off, and kneeling down, moſt humbly deſired His Majeſty that the ancient Canon might be remembred, which ſaith, Schiſmatici contra Epiſcopos non ſunt and endi: was there any thing in the Doctors ſpeech which deſerved ſo ſharp a cenſure, as that for that he ſhould be called a ſchiſmatick, & ſuch a ſchiſmatick as might not be ſuffered to ſpeak, becauſe that which he ſpeaks both piouſly and prudently, is ſaid by a pettiſh Prelate to be ſpoken againſt the Biſhops? But had he not cauſe to be much moved? the partial Pen-man of that Conference will tell you he had: foreeIbid. ſome of theſe men (ſaith he) the evening before, and the ſame morning had made a ſemblance of joyning with the Biſhops, and that they ſought for nothing but unity; but now they ſtrook at their overthrow (if they could) all at once. Epiſcopacy, or rather Prelacy, ſurely is like the Apples of Sodom, if ſuch a tender touch of the Doctor would overthrow all at once: But the Doctor and thoſe of his mind, though as peaceably minded as any, ſhould have been overthrown at once, if the King (who acted the office of a Moderator) had not been more moderate, and given ſome check to the Biſhops choler,ffPag. 28. telling him, he ſhould have ſuffered the Doctor to have taken his courſe and liberty; concluding, that there is no order, nor can be any effectual iſſue of disputation, if each party might not be ſuffered without chopping, to ſpeak at large what he would; and therefore willed, that either the Doctor ſhould proceed, or that the Biſhop would frame his anſwer to the motions already made. And this is the proper work of a Preſident, or Moderator at a Diſputation or Conference.
Sometimes the power which doth authorize the Diſpute, leaveth liberty to the Diſputants, by conſent, to chuſe their Preſident or Moderator; So did Sigiſmond King of Poland to the Trinitarians and Antitrinitarians for their Diſputation at Petricovia,ggAntho. Poſſ. Biblioth. Sele. Tom. 1. l. 8. c. 13. p. 363. who after ſome debate, reſolved that the Preſident ſhould be choſen by turns one out of each party.
I will give you but one Obſervation more concerning this matter; and it is that memorable one betwixt Ambroſe Biſhop of Millain, and Auxentius and Arian Biſhop; the67 Arian challenged the Orthodox Biſhop to diſpute, procured the Authority of the Emperor Valentinian (a Child not yet baptized) by the favour of the Empreſs Juſtina an Arian, for his ſummons to appear in the Emperors Court or Conſiſtory, ſignifying that certain learned Jewes and Pagans were choſen as Judges on Auxentius part, and allowing him to make choice of his Judges. Ambroſe from ſuch premiſes expecting no good concluſion, refuſed to anſwer either the challenge of the Arian, or charge of the Emperor; andhhAmbroſe Ep. 32. l 5. Tom. 3. p. 121, &c. makes his Apology to the Emperor with a modeſt boldneſs, giving him all reverential and dutiful terms, yet freely without fear, pleading with him the right of his cauſe.
3. The next particular is the Perſons requiſite for the ordering of a Diſpute, are Notaries, who have aniiNotariorum arserat, ut quae dicebantur notatis quibuſdam exciperent tanta celeritate, ut non dictantis tantùm ſed loquentis vocem aſſequerentur, unde Graecis〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉dicuntur. Eraſm. in vita Origen. fol. 3. p. 1. art of ſhort and ſwift writing, to ſet down what is ſpoken in diſputation, when it is ſpoken. This was the manner of publick diſputations beforekEpiph. contra Photinianos Haereſ. 71. l. 3. Tom. 1. p. 197. col. 1. Epiphanius his time, as he ſheweth by example; and ſo it was in the diſputation betwixt the Catholicks and Donatiſts, whereinlApertis notariotum tabulis diſputatio coepta eſt Poſſidon. in vita Aug. c. 6. Auguſtine had to do; and in his diſputation withmAug. de actis cum Foelice Manich. fine lib. 1. Tom. 6. p. 633. Foelix the Manichean, there were Notaries on both ſides.
In later times the like hath been obſerved, as in the controverſie at Petricovia in Poland, that we may be ſure it was waged betwixt Papiſts and Arrians:nnAnthon. Poſſev. Biblioth. Select. videat lit. c. Poſſevine relateth, the Scribe or Notary was a noble perſonage, who had written againſt Calvin. In the conference at Ratisbone, betwixt the Proteſtants and Papiſts, the Proteſtants moved, that what paſſed in the conference may beooProteſtantes, qui viderent quibuſcū adverſariis eſſent commiſſi, collocutionem omnem & acta deſcribi petunt. Sleyd. comment. l. 16. p. 353. ſet down by Notaries: and at that in Poyſie it was one of the conditions of the Colloquie propounded by Beza and his aſſociates,pHiſt. of the Councel of Trent, l. 5. p. 451. that there ſhould be Notaries choſen by both parties: ſo was Mr. Aleſbury choſen to write the Conference or Diſpute betwixt Doctor Featley andqSee the Romiſh Fiſher caught and held in his own Net. part 1. p. 46. Fiſher. The office of a Notary is faithfully, and without partiality, to68 write what paſſeth betwixt the adverſe parties. Againſt a falſe Notary the Emperor Alexander Severus was ſo ſevere, that herrNotarium inciſis digitorum nervis, ut nunquam ſcribere poſſet. Bucolz. Index Chron. ad An. 223. p. 171. cauſed his fingers to be cut off, ſo that he could never write after. Mr. Fiſher the Jeſuite, I believe, had not read that ſtory, when he thruſt himſelf into a Notaries office, at a Diſpute betwixt Dr. Featley and Mr. Musket, andſſRomiſh Fiſher, &c. p. 37. falſified that office. Some that mean not well have no mind of Notaries,ttPaſcentius verba ſua excerpi noluit. Aug. Epiſt. 174 Tom. 2. p. 901. as Paſcentius the Arrian, Auguſtines Adverſary, who would not yield to have his tongue followed by the Notaries pen; the Popiſh party liked not the motion of the Proteſtants for Notaries in the Conference at Ratisbone, alledging it would draw out the debate too long, if that might be an exception, then it cannot well be ſo, at leaſt not ſo well: now in our more expert age, wherein there are many, who by Brachygraphy, can write as faſt as moſt men ordinarily ſpeak. uuPoſsidon. in vita, Aug. c. 17.The want of Notaries in a private Diſpute betwixt Augustine and Paſcentius, gave him occaſion and encouragement to brag that he had the better of it, and put Auguſtine to make a confutation of that falſhood, by their teſtimonies who were preſent at it. From the ſame cauſe was it, that Dr. Fr. White was repreſented ſo ſilly a Diſputant with Fiſher, as if he had been a School-boy of thirteen years old; for hewwDoctor Fr. White his reply to Jeſuite Fiſh. anſw. Pre. p. 9. princ. & fine. confeſſeth there was not a word written at that time, when he and his Adverſaries diſputed together.
The fourth ſort of perſons convenient to be preſent at a Diſpute of Religion are ſuch, as for their integrity and diſcretion, are worthy to be witneſſes of what paſſeth in Diſpute. Such are not ſuperfluous (beſides the Notaries) to atteſt the tranſaction of every dayes diſpute, and the whole at the laſt: and ſuch hadxxPoſsid. vide lit. q. Auguſtin in his private diſpute with Paſcentius, though without Notaries. And by ſuch was the cauſe and credit of the Proteſtant Religion, and the Champion for it Doctor Featly, righted againſt the fictions and falſhoods of Fiſher and his party, concerning the cloſe of their conference, which in truth was thus; Fiſher refuſing to anſwer to Christ and his Apoſtles, the Proteſtant party preſent called off, or rather pulled off the opponent Doctor Featly; ſo the conference brake up: and this is atteſtedyyThe Romiſh Fiſher, &c. par. 1. p. 45, 46. by the ſubſcription of two Earls, two Knights, three Eſquires,69 one Doctor, two Batchelors in Divinity, beſides the Notaries choſen by both parties.
Fourthly, For other Auditors, it were to be wiſhed that none were admitted, but ſuch as in ſome competent meaſure are able to judge, and are not weaklings in the Faith, ſince the Apoſtle ſaith, him that is weak in the Faith receive, but not to doubtful disputations, Rom. 14.1. But it cannot be that (as it was at the conference at Ratisbone and Hampton Court) the hearers ſhould be alwayes only ſuch as are particularly called, or admitted: and we find examples of promiſcuous admiſſion of all perſons, both in ancient and in latter times; for the former we have an inſtance in Auguſtines time, when at his diſputation with a Manichean DoctorzzConvenerunt in unum, concurrentibuſqueplurimis viris ſtudioſis turbiſquecurioſis. Poſsidon, de vita Aug. p. 6. there came together not only many ſtudious men, but the curious multitude: and when Gregentius diſputed with Herbanus the learned Jew, theaa〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, &c. Biblioth. veterum patrū Graeco Lat. Tom. 1. p. 194. whole City came thronging together to hear. The diſputations of latter times eſpecially, ſince thoſe errors which heretofore uſed for fear or ſhame to ſneke into corners, have got the impudence to give affront to Preachers in the Pulpit, and their maintainers to challenge them to diſpute; a kind of neceſsity hath been put upon ſome to conteſt for the truth in the moſt publick Audiences and Aſſemblies of the people. Thus much for the perſons conſiderable in and about diſputations of Religion.
Our next obſervations muſt be ſet upon Rules and Lawes, whereby diſputations muſt be regulated in order to an happy iſſue and ſucceſs.
Firſt then, According to the religious Aphoriſm ofbb〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 1. Tom. 1. p. 1. Nazianzen, the work muſt begin with God, and end with God by prayers and praiſes, for he is the father of Lights, James 5.7. and can make dark things clear; and when he ſets a light before men, he can open their eyes to ſee it, and bind their hearts to embrace it.
Secondly, Whatſoever point or Doctrine we bring to diſcuſſion, we muſt make Gods word the authentick rule of tryal, receiving nothing as matter of Faith Fundamental to Salvation, but what is in expreſs terms contained in it, or by juſt conſequence deduced from it.
Thirdly, The matter in queſtion muſt be truely and clearly70 ſtated and agreed upon before the diſputation begin, elſe it may be**See the explication of the proverb, c. 4. lit. w. Andabatarum pugna, a blind buffeting of the Diſputants betwixt themſelves, or a beating of the air, as the Apoſtle phraſeth it. ttAlternis vicibus contentioſo fune uterque diem in veſperam traxerunt, nubulo quodam veritas obumbrabatur. Tertull. adverſ. Judaeos c. 1. princ. cap. Tom. 1. p. 198.Tertullian in the beginning of his book againſt the Jewes, obſerves ſuch a diſputation betwixt a Chriſtian and a Jewiſh Proſelyte, who drew out the day as by a cord of contention until night; in the mean time the truth was overſhadowed by a cloud, which was to be cleared up by determining theddSummum quaeſtionis ipſius certis lineis determinemus, Ibid. c. 2. p. 19•: ſumme of the Queſtion, within certain lines or limits of reſolution for the ſtate of it, as he ſpeaketh afterwards. If this be not firſt done, nothing in the diſpute can be well done, no orderly proceeding can be made in the way, but a wild wandering out of the way; which might juſtly have moved your Adverſary Mr. O. in ſober ſadneſs (without any jeering) to confeſs that he was miſerably overſeen, yea, in the underſtanding of that very queſtion upon which he diſputed, until he came to page 113. of his Examination of your Reply, which in all containeth but 130.
Fourthly, That the Diſputation be not drawn out by Rhetorical Exſpatiations (as the Jeſuite Cotton was uſed to do, who was, aseePetrus Cottonus Rhetoricus jactantior quàm dialecticus acutior. Daniel. Cham. Praefat. ad 2. par. Epiſt. Jeſuit. Chamier ſaith of him, rather a braving Rhetorician then an arguing Logician) but rather contracted by Logical Argumentation. Some have no mind of Logical Diſputes, becauſe there are others who uſe Sophiſtry, or fallacious Concluſions, whichffContorta Sophiſmata, ſic enim app. Hantur fallaces concluſiunculae. Cicer. Acad. quaeſt. Edit. 1. l. 2. num. 67. Cicero calleth writhed and pricking Sophiſmes, for Logick; and which Seneca gravely derideth,ggNon debuit hoc nobis eſſe propoſitum argutè diſſerere, & Philoſophiam in has anguſtias ex ſua majeſtate detrahere, nequequicquam aliud iſtae diſputationes ſunt quàm inter ſe peritè captantium luſus. Senec. Epiſt 48. p. 464. Edit. Lipſian. as a degrading of Philoſophy from the latitude of her Majeſty into ſtreights; and meer plays or triflings betwixt ſuch as are cunningly captious: and when Doctor Featley required of his Antagoniſt M. Fiſher, that both the opponent and reſpondent ſhould be tyed to Logical form: Fiſher anſwered, that he did not hold that fit, becauſe the company underſtands not Logick form; to which the Doctor anſwered, there are of the company that underſtand Logick as well as you or I, the reſt are men of understanding and reaſon; and I am reſolved to keep Logick form, and expect from you direct anſwers:hhRomiſh Fiſher, E. c. 1.1. par. p. 8.71 and well he might, for Logick is nothing but Reaſon brought into Rule; wherewith by the light of Nature many are well endowed, though they have not the art of Logick: but it ſeems they meant a ſtrict Form of Logick by Syllogiſmes,iiIbid. though the Question of the viſibility of the Church in all ages (which they had in debate) required, as the Doctor told the Jeſuite, rather a large Hiſtorical volume, then a brief Syllogiſtical Diſpute: and for Logick, I know not how any diſpute can be well ordered without it; ſince, askkAug. Tom. 1. p. 375. Dialectica nihil aliud docet quàm conſequentia demonſtrare, ſeu vera veris, ſeu falſa falſis, Aug. contr. Creſcon. Grammat. l. 1. c. 20. Tom. 7. par. 1 p. 261. Auguſtine ſaith, it teacheth nothing elſe but to demonſtrate conſequences true or falſe, from true or falſe principles;lNunquam doctrina Chriſtiana dialecticam formidat; ſicut eam in Stoicis non reformi dabat Apoſt. quos ſecum volentes conferre non reſpuit. Ibid. which Christian Doctrine (ſaith he) is never afraid of; as the Apoſtle Paul did not fear it in the Stoi•ks, whom he did not refuſe, when they were willing to confer with him.
But for Logickly ſtrict Form of Syllogiſme throughout the diſputation, it cannot well be obſerved, much leſs is it of neceſsity to be required; and indeed it was very ſeldom practiſed by the Ancients; yea, that great Diſputant, Auguſtine himſelf, though he have not only written ammAug. Tom. 1. operum p. 375. Treatiſe of Logick, but annnAug. contra Creſcon. Grāmat. l. 1. ubi ſupra. Apology for Logick, putteth very few of his Reaſonings into Syllogiſtical Form. And when they Syllogize, ſome of the ſhew themſelves no very good Artiſts at it, as we may ſee by Gregory Nyſſens ten Syllogiſmes againſt the Manichean Hereticks: and for latter times,ooGreg. Nyſſent Tom. 3. p. 180. 〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. though ſome diſputations have been carried on by a Series of many Syllogiſmes artificially concluded in Mood and Figure,ppFox. Martyr. vol. 2. p. 757, 758, 759, 760. as that of Peter Martyr againſt Doctor Treſham, Chadſey, and Morgan before the Kings Viſitors at Oxford, Ann. 1549. ordinarily they have paſſed by Alternation and Reciprocation of Reaſons and Exceptions, without forming of Syllogiſmes in Mood and Figure, and have not been the leſs profitable and ſucceſsful; as we ſee in that excellent Debate or Diſpute, called a Conference betwixt Doctor Reynolds and the Jeſuite Hart.
Fifthly, That there be allowed an equall viciſsitude for objecting and anſwering without interruption; and that none interpoſe, or take upon them to be Diſputants, but thoſe that72 were agreed upon before the diſputation began: the care of theſe cautions belongeth eſpecially to the Moderators or Preſidents office, as King James his example ſheweth in the conference at Hampton Court, by reproving the Biſhop of London for interrupting Doctor Reynolds, as hath been brought in already, though to another purpoſe.
Sixthly, When there is an Intermiſsion, or end of the diſputition, Firſt, the Notaries writings are to be compared, and if they differ, to be reconciled.
Secondly, The Diſputants are to have liberty to reviſe their own Reaſons, Objections, and Solutions, and to correct them by altering, adding, or expunging, ſo as may make for the amendment of their own Arguments and Anſwers. This liberty Dr. Reynolds and Mr. Hart allowed one another.
Thirdly, When each ſide is ſatisfied, and that their opinions and pleadings are ſet down as they would have them, then the Parties, Notaries, and Witneſſes hands are to be ſubſcribed to them.
Seventhly, Sometimes ſecrecy is required upon oath, that nothing be revealed to any one abſent from the conference, until a certain time;qqSleyd. Comment. l. 16. p. 534. as when the Emperor impoſed this condition on the conference at Ratisbone, viz. that nothing ſhould be communicated to any one not preſent, before the Emperor and Princes of the Empire were made acquainted with all the tranſactions under the hands of the Notaries; which the Proteſtant party could not yield unto, becauſe their Princes required an account of their proceedings of the Colloquie from time to time: this occaſioned the breaking up the conference abruptly without fruit, but not without mutual offence on both ſides.
There be ſome other Rules which might have augmented the number, if I ſhould have counted on with them; but I have virtually premiſed th•m already in the qualifications of the Diſputants: I ſhall add no more but only this advice, that the diſpute, according to the admonition of**Nazianz. Tom. 1. orat. 1. p. 1. Nazianzen, begin and end like the eighth Pſalm, with glory to God. If Colloquies, Conferences, and Diſputations of matters of Religion were thus begun, continued and concluded, the truth would be not73 onely militant againſt, but triumphant over rebellious errour, which preſumes to affront it, and ſometimes to challenge it into the field, and over reproachful rumour which dogs it with barking obloquie afterwards; and ſo there would be no need of playing an after game with the Adverſary, as now there is with yours, of whom, with what he hath written againſt you, I ſhall in that which followeth, according to your requeſt, give you a reaſon of my former advice, not to honour him any more by taking him for your Antagoniſt; and ſo from Diſputations in general, I ſhall paſs to your Diſputation with Mr. O. in particular.
THe occaſion of the Diſputation (as it is related in Doctor Brians Letter to me, and in both his and Mr. Onley's Epiſtles printed with, and prefixed before the printed Diſputation) was this; When the Lecture at Kenelmworth, at the Monday monthly meeting there was agreed upon by many Miniſters, and begun Decem. 1. 1655. for the ſetting up, and ſetling of a Goſpel-order in Parochial Congregations. Doctor Brian, who took the firſt turn in it, held it on himſelfe the ſpace of ſix months together; the Text he treated on was Coloſ. 2.5. Though I b•abſent in the fleſh, yet am I with you in the ſpirit, joying and beholding your order, and the ſtedfaſtneſs of your faith in Chriſt. In my ſecond Sermon (ſaith he) I deſired any that ſhould hearme, or hear what I delivered touching the way of reforming74 our Parochial Church's, which we reſolved on, if they doubted of the truth of any thing, they would ſignifie their doubts or ſcruples in writing, and I would endeavour to ſatisfie them. Accordingly a godly Brother of the Congregational way (Lieutenant Fox by name) ſent in ſundry objections to the Doctors third diſcourſe upon that Text, and ſome letters paſſed betwixt them, whereof he (i.e. Mr. Fox) deſired not any publication (though for parts and piety he is judged no way inferiour to Mr. Onley) but he, viz. Mr. O. the next day openly declared his diſſent, and deſired to diſpute with the Doctor publickly upon theſe two Queſtions.
Firſt, Whether the Pariſh Aſſemblies of England generally be true viſible Churches; which Mr. O. denied.
Secondly, Whether every Brother, though no Elder, that hath received abilities from God (whereby he is enabled to preach) may publickly preach; which he affirmed; appointing me, ſaith Doctor Brian, to be Opponent in the firſt, and Reſpondent in the ſecond queſtion the next monthly day.
It would have ſignified ſome modeſty in Mr. O. not to have appoynted Dr. Br. but to have the turns of diſpute as he would appoint them.
I need not tell you (ſaith the Doctor) how many diſſwaſions I had from entring the lists with an illiterate Adverſary, as Mr. O. was taken for by many: among others this that in ſo doing, I ſhould diſparage my ſelfe, nor was there any probability of good to come of it; which it had been well, if he had heeded ſo far, as to refuſe not ſo much the diſpute it ſelf, as to undertake it with ſuch an unequal oppoſite. But he argued himſelf into an acceptance of the challenge, out of ſome reaſons of piety, charity, and humility, which (as event hath proved) were miſapplyed to Mr. O. and that rather by his injurious miſdoing, then by the Doctors imprudent miſtaking. Beſides he had an inducement to adventure ſome inconveniencies by the diſpute (while but doubtful) from the experience of his conteſtation with two Anabaptiſts of London, Mr. Knowles and Mr. Kaffen, who came from thence to Coventry, with a great deal of confidence to confront Dr. Brian, and his worthy Brother Dr. Grewe in a publick diſputation: for which purpoſe, though the Magiſtrates75 of the City, and at their requeſt, promiſed to lend the Town-Hall (upon the boyſterous misbehaviour both of themſelves, and of many of their followers, on the Sabbath day before the diſputation (who flocked in great numbers thither, to countenance and encourage their Champions) they recalled their conceſsion, & for the ſame cauſe the Committee of Parliament reſiding there, for bade the diſpute. The 2. Doctors notwithſtanding were neceſſitated ſomewhat to Symbolize with the Anabaptiſts, viz. ſo far as to a non-obedience of their Governours therein, & that rather in hope of their pardon, then in contempt of their power; becauſe the Anabaptiſts imputed theſe prohibitions, not ſo much to the prudence of the Magiſtrates, as to the diffidence of the Doctors to undertake the defence of their profeſſed judgment and practice: and this ſiniſter ſuggeſtion ſo far ſwayed with ſome religious perſons, that they inclined to make a Schiſme from the Church, if theſe far-fetched Fencers ſhould find none to take up the Sword and Buckler againſt them. For prevention of which ſcandal, they were publickly encountred, the truth ſo ſtrenuouſly aſſerted, and they ſo fully confuted (in a very numerous Auditory) that ſuch as before were wavering, and in a manner tottering towards a revolt (if they ſhould have had cauſe to glory, that they put off their harneſs, becauſe none durſt put on any to combat with them) were throughly ſatisfied, and firmly ſetled and eſtabliſhed in the truth. The like bravadoes Doctor Brian might expect from his Thraſonical challenger, if he had not been undertaken, and his factious adherents would have triumphantly traduced him, that he durſt not commit his cauſe to ſuch a publick trial, and ſo they might have gained a great advantage, which might have confirmed his fellow-Sectaries, and diſſetled the ſimple, too much addicted to liſten after novel fancies, and to like them too well. Beſides, he might have good hope alſo that the ſucceſs of a diſputation at Kentlmworth would be ſuch, as there was of that at Coventry. And ſo the day prefixed to begin the diſputation being come, nine Arguments were brought by the Doctor, in vindication of the Affirmative in the firſt Queſtion; and when half the time was ſpent in debate of the two firſt, Mr. O. (as himſelfe ſaith) moved for the reſt of the time to oppoſe76 in the ſecond queſtion, which was granted only with a motion of reading the other ſeven in the Congregation: whereto Mr. O conſented, deſiring a copy of the Arguments undiſputed of, to return an anſwer to be likewiſe publickly read the next meeting, which was Monday month after; according to which, Mr. O. drew up, as he ſaith, a Reply, and read it in the Congregation.
IMmediately after what Mr. O. had drawn up was read, a Gentleman then preſent, deſired that the Diſputation might be printed, and deſired Mr. O. to move it to the Doctor, which he did; whereto he replied, if he might reply he was willing: but ſaid withal, that he had twelve Arguments more in proof of the queſtion: to which I replyed (ſaith Mr. O.) I was contented he ſhould reply to mine anſwer to the nine firſt without any rejoynder, provided I might anſwer to the twelve laſt without his reply, onely till they were printed; and then each ſhould be at liberty to write what he pleaſed. To this motion of printing the Doctor yielded in the cloſe of the third or fourth dayes diſputation. viz. that Mr. O. his Arguments, Anſwers, Replyes, and Rejoynders might be put in print, and (for his proviſo) Doctor Brian gave him liberty to oppoſe what he pleaſed, and take in alſo the help of Mr. Marley, and thoſe other ſeven who aſſiſted him in diſputation, that the utmoſt he and they could object further againſt our Pariſh Churches, might come under one view: and withal, the Doctor wiſhed him to forbear in ſtead of arguing, to make any more excurſions by tedious and impertinent declamations againſt our Miniſters and77 Members, wherein all your anſwers (ſaith he to Mr. O.) for the moſt part ſpend themſelves. So in the Epiſtle of Doctor Brian to Mr. O. I have related the more out of both their printed Teſtimonies, touching the diſputation and impreſsion of it, becauſe the printed book is very hard to come by, though Mr. O. ſaith it was publiſhed with both their conſents, which may be very much doubted of for divers reaſons. For,
Firſt, there were no publick Notaries and Witneſſes, to write and atteſt what paſſed in diſpute betwixt them.
Secondly, Though there were copies taken of the diſpute, the chief pen-man of the whole was Mr. O. who(a)(a)In the Diſputat. p. 46. confeſſith, by reaſon of a mighty crowd of people he could hardly breathe, or write one perfect ſentence of Doctor Brians Sermon: and there might be as much difficulty in taking by his pen other Dictates delivered by word. The crowd it is like was very great, for Dr. Brian ſpeaking of ſeven which took Mr. O. his part in the diſputation, who were Antipedobaptists; he in his anſwer ſaith,bbJ. O. in his Exam. of the Doctors Reply. p. 23, 24. he believeth there was ſeven times ſeven thrice told that took his part, that is 149. and I believe for one ſuch a one, there was 20. at leaſt of a contrary judgement.
Thirdly, But if there were a perfect copy of the Diſpute made up by the Doctor and him, that copy was committed to Mr. O. his hand to be promoted to the Preſs, and no copy kept, whereby it might be known to be truely printed: ſuch was the Doctors candid and ſuſpectleſs dealing with his adverſary, which laid a great engagement upon him, of fair and ingenuous correſpondence with him again.
Fourthly, When the book was printed, he ſhould have ſent the Doctor a copy of it, before he had printed his Letter of conſent unto it, that he might allow or diſallow it, as he ſhould ſee cauſe.
Fifthly, Mr. O. having the Manuſcript in his own hands, might have altered his own part for the better, the Doctors for the worſe at his pleaſure. And that he had a mind to magnifie himſelf, and diſgrace the Doctor all he could, is plain, both by the book of the diſputation, and by his latter book of the Examination of the Doctors Reply. For the former, it may appear to any indifferent Reader, that for a good part of the Book,78 from the beginning (wherin Doctor Brian is Opponent) he expreſſeth the promptneſs of a ready Text-man, and the acumen of a Polemick School-man, as his aſſiduous and unceſſant (yet very powerful) preaching, ſheweth him an excellent Pulpitman: But in the relation of the latter part of the Book Mr. O. ſo enervateth the vigour of his diſcourſe, as if he had ſuffered a failing of his faculties, as Sampſon did when his locks were ſhorn. And this he did that he might have more hope to appear a conqueror in the conflict. To which end he contracteth the Doctors Speeches, and enlargeth his own after what ſize he pleaſeth: ſo that he neither doth, nor can acknowledg he hath done him right in the printed Edition of that diſputation. And who that knoweth his eminent abilities for quickneſs of conceit, ſoundneſs of judgement, and livelineſs of ſpirit, and volubility of ſpeech, can imagine that he would ſuffer Mr. O. to enlarge his anſwer to his ninth Argument, of leſs then four lines, to well towards forty; and in that anſwer to ſum up the Diſpute into a Triumphant Compendium for his own reputation, and the Doctors reproach, without one word of Reply for himſelf or his cauſe? As in this printed diſputation he hath done him little right, ſo in the other Book he hath done him a great deal of wrong, for not being contented to magnifie his own performance, with a maſterſhip in the Diſpute, as himſelf ſets it forth (when it had been honour enough for him, in that Doctor Brian accepted of him for his Antagoniſt, though he had ſubmitted to him as his convert) he publiſhed another Book as an examination of the Doctors Reply; wherein he took a great deal more liberty to traduce him. But that which I will obſerve at preſent, is his unworthy dealing with the Doctor, in the publication of thoſe two Books: for becauſe he could not for ſhame but publiſh ſomething in the diſpute, which might appear anſwerable to Dr. Brians deſerved eſtimation (for otherwiſe hundreds would have accuſed him as a falſary) that book of the diſpute was rather ſuppreſſed, then commonly ſold; for ſo ſoon as I heard that it was to be printed, I wrote to my Stationer for it, and remembred him of it with much importunity many times for many weeeks and months together, to procure one for me; and though he uſed his beſt endeavour79 and diligence to that purpoſe, he ſtill returned a non est inventus for that book: but ſo ſoon as I heard of Mr. O. his ſecond book, and ſent for it, I received it by the firſt return of the Carrier afterward: the readieſt reaſon of which difference I conceive to be this, Mr. O. his falſhood in the former Book, might more eaſily be diſcovered then in the latter; and his honour to the Doctors diſhonour in the later was more ſet forth, then in the former. In the publication whereof, beſides the offenſive Contents of it, he gav•Doctor Brian cauſe of complaint, in that this later Book againſt him (much more againſt him then the former, becauſe it was much more contumelious and inſolent) had been abroad a long time, before he had any notice thereof. Truely whatſoever Mr. O. thinketh of his own omiſſion herein (and it may be his deſire was, that he of all men ſhould never have ſeen it) I could not but take it for a part of ingenuity and juſtice (when my caſe was like his) to give as timely intelligence as I could, of what I had publiſhed againſt his Friend mine Adverſary Mr. S. by leaving one of my Books with his Stationer G. C. ſo ſoon as it came from the Preſs, to be ſent to him with ſpeed: and ſo I dealt with Doctor H. for (having received ſome copies of my firſt Book againſt him, firſt of all upon Friday night) I ſent my ſervant with one to him the next Saturday following.
I Shall ſay little of the man, but what I find publiſhed to the world by his own Pen, and if that have betrayed him to the condemning cenſure of pious and judicious Readers, he muſt blame himſelf, not me, who have no exception againſt his perſon. I confeſs he once maketh mention of me,ccIn the Exam•of Dr. Brians Reply. p. 32. as of an Adverſary, but diſmiſſeth me without any incivility at all. And I am ſo far from detracting from any commendation due unto him, that I ſhall not fear the ſharp Criticiſme of Baronius concerning Onuphrius, which was,ddAventinum infectum Haereſis ſcabie beſtiam indigne nimis Onuphrius homo Catholicus pectine ſcalpit eburneo, dum eum praedicat virum eſſe diſertum. Baron. Annal. Tom. 10. Anno 996. col. 496. that he being a Catholick, did too unworthily claw a beaſt infected with a ſcab of Hereſie, with an Ivory comb, when he commended Aventine for an eloquent man; I ſhould not, I ſay, fear ſuch a cenſure.
Though for the two firſt particulars, as ſome have repreſented him to me, I ſhould ſay of him, as Auguſtine did ofeeTychonius Donatiſta homo quidem acri ingenio & ubere eloquio praeditus. Aug. l. 1. contr. Ep. Parmen. c. 1. Tom. 7. par. 1. p. 9. Tychonius the Donatiſt, that he is a man endowed with a ſharp wit, and copious utterance; and that made him more able, and more willing to wrangle with the Doctor, and to his partial adherents to ſeem victorious, when in the judgement of the moſt judicious and equal hearers, he was vanquiſhed, as ſome of them have told me; and I conceive I have the more cauſe to believe it, becauſe in whatſoever he moſt excelled the Doctor, was far81 above him, being eminently endowed with all kind of learning: wherein to ſpeak to the third particular [Mr. O. his Ignorance] he was very deficient, though he bring in now and then a few words of Hebrew, Greek and Latine, that an illiterate Reader may take him for a learned man. And if he had been ſuch a one indeed, he would not have brought in Hiſtorical reports of matters of importance done many hundred years before he was born, without quoting ſome Author of account; as for that offfMr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply. p. 7. Paphnutius, who though but one man, prevailed for the liberty of marriage of Clergy-men, againſt a General Councel; for which he ſhould (and no doubt would, if he had been verſed in venerable Antiquity) have citedggConcil. Nice. prim. Tom. 1. Counc. p. 423. col. 1. edit. Bin. 1636. the Councel of Nice, orhhSocr. Scholaſt. li 1. c. 8. Niceph. Eccleſ. Hiſt. l. 8. c. 18, 19. Socrates Scholaſticus, or Nicephorus, or ſome other Hiſtoriographer of ſome of the precedent ages. In which ſtory, though he glory very much, and repeat it ſeveral times without proof, it makes as much for the credit of the Quakers, againſt his ſchiſmatical party, as for them againſt the more numerous company of regular Profeſſors of the Doctors way; for which purpoſe he produceth the ſingular example, but it bewrayes more ignorance of Antiquity in that: for the firſt diviſion of Pariſhes by Honorius Biſhop of Canterbury,iiMr. O. in the Miſput. p. 14. he citeth a very late Novelliſt Mr. Saltmarſh, and by him learned Mr. Selden (in his Book De Decimis) an Epithet and Subject in learned Mr. Selden well matched, and as well in ignorant Mr. Saltmarſh and Mr. O. both, in this particular eſpecially; for the Book is not, as the Author entitles it, De Decimis, but the Hiſtory of Tithes: and in thatkkSeld. Hiſt. of Tythes. c. 9. paragr. 3. p. 256, 257, 258. Hiſtory he diſproves their opinion, who hold that Honcrius Arch-Biſhop of Canterbury divided his Province into Pariſhes, or Parochial Limits, ſuch as we have; for the word Parochia in his age, may be taken rather for a Dioceſs, then for a diviſion of leſſer compaſs, as in later times; for in the Prelacy of his next ſucceſſor but one, whoſe name was Theodorus, An. 673 there was a Councel celebrated at Herudford, as Beda reporteth, whereof in the ſecond Canon it is ordained,llNullus Epiſ coporum Parochiam alterius invadat, ſed contentus ſit gubernatione creditae ſibi plebis. Concil. Herudford: cui Praeſidebat Archiep. Theodor. can 2. apud Bed. Eccleſ. Hiſt. Gent. Anglor. l. 4. c. 5. p. 160. that no Biſhop invade another Biſhops Pariſh, but that he be content with the government of the people committed to his charge. That which82 anſwereth to the extent of a Biſhops authority in the language of thoſe times, was not of ſo narrow a circumference as a Paſtoral charge. The truth is, neither Mr. O. nor Mr. Selden, though an induſtrious Antiquary, could determine the Antiquity of Parochial Diviſions. mmH•norius Archiepiſcopus Cantuarienſis circa annum à ſalute reparata 636. Angliam primus in Parochias, ut legitur in Hiſtoria Cantuarienſi, diſtribuere coepit. Camb. Brit. p 99. & 100. edit. 3.Cambden I confeſs aſſigned the Diviſion of Pariſhes in England to Honorius for the perſon, and to the year 636. for the time; but he gives too ſhort a note of it, to reſolve the doubts that are moved about it: and by that which next followeth, we may conceive he meaneth the diviſion into Dioceſſes or Biſhopricks, according to the Canon now cited. For mine own and others ſatisfaction I made a more ſerious ſearch into the queſtion, the reſult whereof I delivered in the ſixth Reaſon annexed to the petition to his Highneſs the Lord Protector, and to the High Court of Parliament, for the eſtabliſhment of Miniſters in ſequeſtered Benefices for their own lives.
Now if I may be allowed to plow with mine own Heyſer, though it were not known to be mine (the Book being publiſhed under the name of Pkilotheus Philomyſtes) I conceive it convenient to repeat it here, not onely to diſcover the ignorance of Mr. O. and Mr. S. but to take off the edge of their confidence, when they cry out upon Parochial diviſions as of Antichriſtian inſtitutions: for the original of Parochial partitions DoctornnTooker of the Fab. of the Church and Church Livings. p. 44. Tooker andooHooker Eccleſ. Pol. l. 5. p. 333. Mr. Hooker refer it to Evariſtius Biſhop of Rome, Anno 112. but neither quote any Author for it. They that do name the Book called the Pontificale of Damaſus, who was Biſhop of Rome about the year 367. but that (ſayppBaron. Annal. Tom. 4. ad Ann. 384. num. 22. Baronius andqqPoſſev. Appar. Tom. 1. p. 410. Poſſevine) was not the Book of any Damaſus at all, but of Anaſtaſius Bibliothecarius, ſaithrBellarm. de Eccleſ. Scrip. p. 123. Bellarmine; and whoſe Book ſoever it was, it is (for divers untruths) diſapproved byſBaron. ubi ſupra. Baronius, andtBin. Tom 1. con. p. 61. col. 2. Binius: others refer the diſtinction to Dionyſius who was Biſhop of Rowe, Anno 261. asuBin. Ibid p. 121. col. 2. Binius accounts, butwBaron. Tom. 2. num. 17. Baronius reckons Anno 270. andxBaron. ubi ſupra. reports it rather as a Renovation in his time and by him, then a new inſtitution.
83Obj. But if the diviſion be derived from a Biſhop of Rome, it is Popiſh, and by conſequence Antichriſtian alſo.
Anſw. Not ſo neither; for in the primitive times, when Chriſtianity was perſecuted,aaMr. Fox Martyr. vol. 1. p. 732. col. 2. 22 Biſhops of Rome for it were martyred one after another, from the Apoſtles time downward, to the end of the third Century; and it will be no good manners neither in morality nor Chriſtianity to call them Antichriſtian, who laid down their lives for Chriſts ſake.
Obj. But they are called Popes, and is not that Popery which cometh from the Pope?
Anſw. The Title Pope ſignifieth Father, and anciently was not appropriated to the Biſhops of Rome, but communicated to Biſhops in common, asbbOnuph. in Bonif. 3. p. 81. col. 1. Onuphrius a learned Papiſt confeſſeth: all Biſhops were called Popes, until Juſtinians time, ſaithccPamel. Cypr. p. 11. Pamelius, as Athanaſius Biſhop of Alexandria was called Pope byddEpiph. haereſ. Tom. 2. haereſ. 68. Epiphanius, ſo Heraclius byeeApud Euſeb. Eccleſ. Hiſt. l. 7. c. 6. Dionyſius Alexandrinus, andffCypriano Papae Moyſ. & maximus Ep. 26. p. 32. col. 1. edit. Pamel. Cyprian is often called Pope, yea by theggBenedict. Papam Cyprian. ſic clerus Roman. ad clerum Carthag. Ep. 3. p. 10. col. 2. Cypr. Papae clerus Rom. Ep. 30. p. 55. col. 1. Cypriano Papae Presbyt. & Diacon. Romae. Ep. 31. p. 36. col. 2. & in fine Epiſt. optamus to beatiſſ. & glorioſiſſ. Papa. p. 38. Ibid. Clergy of Rome (albeit he were not Biſhop of Rome, but of Carthage) and by a Pope (it was PopehSelden Spicil. ad Eadmerum. p. 205. ex Gervaſio Dorobernenſi. M.S. Ʋrban the ſecond) was our Arch-Biſhop of Canterbury called Pope of the other world, meaning, of the Iſland of great Britain, ſevered by the Sea from the world. Hierom, though (as hath been noted) he were reſpective enough of the reputation of the Roman Prelate, familiarly applyed that title to others as well as unto him, as toiHieron. ad Heliodor. Epitaph Nepotiani Tom. 1. p. 27. & Tom. 6. Proem. in Jonam propher. p. 123. Cromatius, tokkHieron. Apolog. adverſ. Ruffinum l. 2. Tom. 2. p. 225. ante medium. Epiphanius, tollHieron. Ep. ad Chromatiam Tom. 1. p. 216. circa med. Valerianus, tommHi•ronym. ad Princip. Marcellae viduae Epitaph. Tom. 1. p. 119. prope initium. Athanaſius, tonnIbid. Tom. 2. p. 311. Ep. Theophilo & p. 310. Ep. Pammach. & Marcello. Theophilus, toooIdem Tom. 5. p. 63. in Prolog. in 10. viſion. Eſa. Amabilis, toppIdem Tom. 4 p 64. de viro perfect. ſub nomine H•eron. Ambroſe, toqqSymbol. Suffin. inter opera Hieron. Tom. 4. p. 129. lin. 1. Symbol. Hieron. Laurentius, torrTom. 2. p. 368. Ep. Auguſt. Alipius, and toſſIdem Tom. 2. p. 322, 351, 358, 368, &c. Auguſtine; none of which were Biſhops of Rome, but of other places.
84Ob. But if Biſhops, it is enough to diſcredit all they do, for ſaith Mr. O. (and therein he bewrayeth his groſs ignorance again)ttMr. O. in Diſpute. p. 30. the Devil ordained the Pope, the Pope the Biſhops, and the Biſhops you, to Doctor Brian; how can you be true Miniſters by him that was none himſelfe?
By that which hath been obſerved of the Title Pope, as in the ancient acception of it, the Devil no more ordained the Pope, then he did Biſhops.
For, Biſhops as Biſhops were ordained neither by the Pope nor by the Devil, but by the Holy Ghoſt, as we have it Act. 20.28, Take heed to your ſelves, and to all the flock, over which the holy Ghoſt hath made you〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉Overſeers, the ſame word elſewhere is rendered Biſhops, Philip. 1.1. 1 Tim. 3.2. Tit. 1.7.
The Popes now adayes, and of long time ago, are made by Cardinals, and he makes them again, as Ice and Water produce one another; but the Pope ſeldom makes Biſhops, but Biſhops make Biſhops, both accordinguuSo in the Canon of thoſe that are falſely called the Canons of the Apoſtles. Bin. Tom. 1. Can. 1. p. 16. Concil. Arelatenſ. Ann. 314. It was ordained there ſhould be Biſhops to conſecrate Biſhops, three at the•eaſt. Arelat. Can. 21. Tom. 1. Concil. p. 267. col. 1. to Eccleſiaſtical conſtitution, conſtant cuſtom, and uſage of the Church.
If the Biſhops were Popiſh and Antichriſtian, it doth not follow, that all they do is Popiſh and Antichriſtian.
For firſt, Popes and Papiſts of all ſorts and ranks, doe ſome things as men, by the light of Reaſon, and inſtinct of natural conſcience, as Rom. 2.14, 15. So if Honorius did divide his Province of Canterbury into Pariſhes, as many hold he did (particularly Godwin in hiswwGodwins Catalogue of Biſhops. p. 52. Catalogue of Biſhops) it was (as he ſaith) that he might appoint particular Miniſters to particular Congregations; a courſe ſo rational, that no man can juſtly take exception at it; for doth not common reaſon dictate the ſame for the ordering of all civil Societies, ſubdividing a Nation into Counties, Counties into Hundreds, Hundreds into Cities, Towns and Villages? and are they not governed by Judges, Juſtices, and Conſtables, High and Petty, and all limited within certain precincts, and divided according to the vicinity of their habitations, as the meaning of the word**〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉i.e. juxta habitare, to dwell nigh together: Paroecia intimateth; and ſo in ordering of Armies, Academies, Colledges and Schools. 85The courſe taken according to Reaſon, is to divide and ſubdivide into Companies and Claſſes, and to ſet Officers over them, ſo as may moſt conduce to the benefit of all: and if we ſhall renounce Reaſon, and act by Antipathies,Purch. Pilgr. •. •c. 1•. we may perhaps become as wiſe as the Pagans in Pegu, who both men and women make their teeth black, becauſe dogs teeth are white; and they ſcorn to imitate a canine Candor.
Secondly, Some things they did as men ingenuouſly educated, and endowed with knowledge of Arts, and Tongues, and Hiſtonies, and ſo many who are in their Religion and Profeſſion Popiſh, have written divers excellent Books and Diſcourſes of all ſorts.
Thirdly, Some things they do as Chriſtians, aſſenting to the authority of Scriptures, and teaching and practiſing many things conſonant to the truth and tenour thereof, ſo many of them (even the moſt Antichriſtian as the Jeſuites) have written divers godly diſcourſes and commentaries upon many Books of the Bible, and ſome upon all, which are very conducible to the underſtanding of the Sacred Text.
Fourthly, Some things they dictate, and do as Antichriſtian, and in ſuch things only we are to depart from them; if the Devils believe there is one God, we may believe ſo too, and therein we do well, James 2.19. and if we ſhould not do ſo, wo ſhould be worſe then Devils; whatſoever is good, in whomſoever, is from God; and it is more to be eſteemed in relation to him, then to be condemned in relation unto others, though they he never ſo wicked.
Fifthly, For the Biſhops that ordained our Presbyters, they ordained them as Presbyters, or Miniſters, for ſuch they were before they were Biſhops; and ſo being Presbyters or Miniſters, thoſe whom they ordained might well be true Presbyters and Miniſters alſo.
I will note but one thing more of his ignorance, and that is a probability that he cannot be learned, from his condition and courſe of life; for as one of his diſciples told Doctor Brian, and the Doctor wrote unto me in his Letter, March 6.16.56, He painfully follows Husbandry all the Week dayes, and preacheth to a congregation of Anabaptiſts and Ʋniverſaliſts on the Sabbath.
86How he ſhould be Learned who ſpends the moſt of his time as a Husbannman, unleſs, as Amos an Herdſman at Tekoa, he were divinely inſpired, Amos 1.1. and cap. 17. ver. 14, 15. I cannot conceive: but if he be ſuch a man as he taketh upon him to be, we may in his Name give anſwer to the Apoſtles queſtion, Who is ſufficient for theſe things? 2 Cor. 2.16. Here is M. O. a man ſufficient, and more than ſufficient for the Miniſtry; for he can act the part of a laborious Husbandman ſix days together, and on the ſeventh can perform the Office of a Spiritual Paſtor to a Church or Congregation of Chriſtians. And beſides his Sermon-ſufficiency, is ſo well furniſht with Polemical Divinity, that he dare challenge our moſt learned Doctors to diſpute with them in the greateſt Aſſemblies; and if he may be allowed to report the paſſages of the Diſputation, will baffle them in print into ſhameful ſilence, and leave them to be laughed at. Such was his vapouring vanity in his Examination of Doctor Brians Reply, where having made a ridiculous Argument in the Doctors Name, he expoſeth it to this ſcornful queſtion, Spectatum admiſſiriſum teneatis? Mr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply, p. 61.This may fitly lead in the next note of him, which we may take for an effect of his Ignorance, that is, the Arrogancy of his Spirit.
For the Novice or young Scholar (who hath leaſt knowledge) is apt to be lifted up with pride, 1 Tim. 3.6. and who but an ignorant and arrogant man would in the Title-page of his Examination of the Doctors Reply, affront him (ſo well known to be every way a man of great worth) with ſuch diſdainful and diſgraceful words as theſe, The Invalidity of his Anſwers, his Sophistical helpleſs impertinent ſelf-contradicting Allegations, are preſented to himſelf and others, &c. And as he beginneth, ſo he holds on the ſame inſulting ſtyle, and concluding as he began,Ibid. p. 115. I have (ſaith he) paſſed through your Reply, and it is proved empty in relation to the Vindication of your Ordination and Entrance. And in the laſt pag. but one of his Examination, his words are theſe,Ibid. p. 129. Thus in the midſt of many Employments Temporal and Spiritual, ſeldome allowing me one hours opportunity together to attend on this task, I have given you (ſaith he to Doctor Brian and the world) an account of the unſatufactorineſs and inſufficiency of your Anſwers: And yet he confeſſeth the Doctor87 ſo ſufficient,See pag. 15. of his Epiſt. to the Churches of his way. 1 King. 12.10. that he is as well able to draw ſomething out of any thing, any thing out of nothing, to his preſent purpoſe, as any man he knows in England. But for all that, when he came under your hands, mighty Mr. O. (whoſe little finger. Rohoboam like, is thicker than the loyns of Solomon) he was able to do nothing but marre his own Cauſe, and ſhame himſelf, that you might have the more glorious victory over both. It was well for him that you had ſo little leiſure to attend on this task as you ſay, elſe if you had had time enough to manage your Conteſtation againſt him to your beſt advantage,Puritanulum iſtū in jocos & tricas contererem. Weſton. de triplice hominis officio. he might have been handled by you, as Weſton the bragging Papiſt threatned the learned Doctor Reynolds, which was, that if he could come by him, he would grinde that little Puritan into jests and trifles.
But the Doctor is (though ſuch a one as before we have repreſented him to the Reader) but one man, and to conquer him is nothing with this Goliah, unleſs he bid defiance to the whole Hoſt of Iſrael, and (with him) may ſtalk it over all the Pariſh Churches of this Nation; yea, and with them over all the Churches of Europe and New-England, as trodden down by his ſtrength. He profeſſeth his oppoſition of them in that latitude, in the firſt page of his Examination, and makes account he hath ſo far carried the Cauſe againſt the Doctor (as by the paſſages already noted may appear) wherein though he diſclaim all appearance of Popery both in the Diſpute and Examination,Ibid. pag. 115, 129. he bewrayeth a Papal proud Spirit, even the Spirit of Pope Victor, who would have Excommunicated all the Churches which did not obſerve his rule for the time of Celebration of the Feaſt of Eaſter; as hath been noted under another Title.
The next notorious quality of Mr. O. is his railing and reproching in his Examination of the Doctors Reply: as where he ſetteth upon him with theſe uncivil terms;Exam. p. 60. Tour doting dregs of desperation, and denial of the greatest part of the very Gospel it ſelf, by which you are involved in a labyrinth of abſurdities, errours and confuſions: And afterward in the ſame page, Sure, ſaith he, you ſee not what makes for you, and what againſt you: There is one part of the Gospel that you confeſs not, but88 reproch, contemn, vilifie and deride, viz. The Death of the Lord Jeſus Chriſt for all men in the world, which is commonly called Ʋniverſal Redemption. How far that Doctrine is to be denied, contemned, vilified, and to be bewailed rather than derided, for the horrid Blaſphemies concomitant with it, and conſequent upon it, the Reader may be ſhortly and ſufficiently informed by Mr. Marchemont Nedham,Pag. 67, 68, 69 in his fore-mentioned Book againſt Mr. John Goodwyn. And againſt the Miniſtry in general, Mr. O. venteth himſelf in this virulent manner:
Mr. O. and thoſe of his ſtrain, think they ſpight the Miniſters of England much by calling them Prieſts,Pag. 32. and their Miniſtry a Prieſthood, as Mr. O. doth here and * elſwhere, in a way of reproch, wherein they bewray both their ignorance and malice: for 1. The Etymologie of the word, it is either from the Latine word Praeest, he preſideth, or the Greek word〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, one ſet over another; or it is a contraction of the word Prieſter in Low Dutch, which is a contraction of the word〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉in Greek, ſignifying an Elder, and ſo it is a Name of honour; for the Lord hath ſaid, Thou ſhalt riſe up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the Elder, Lev. 19.32. And that this is at length, what the word Prieſt is in ſhort, is evident by the alteration which Archbiſhop Land made in the old Service-Book of England, when it was to be ſent into Scotland; for every where, where the Engliſh hath the word Prieſt, the Scotch Service-book hath the word Presbyter: nor is the word Prieſt a word of diſparagement in the New Teſtament, ſince the word Prieſt and Prieſthood is aſcribed to Chriſt above or about ten times in the Epiſtle to the Hebrews.
The ſame is given in an honorable ſenſe unto Chriſtians in 1 Pet. cap. 2. where they are called An holy Prieſthood, ver. 5. a royal Prieſthood, ver 9. and holineſs and honour do well ſort together, 1 Theſſ. 4.4. & Rev. c. 1. v. 5. c. 5. v. 10. they are (as by Titles of honour) called Kings and Prieſts, c. 20.6. Prieſts alone, in regard of their ſpiritual Sacrifices, as of praiſe, Heb. 13.15. of prayer, Pſal. 141.2. of a broken and contrite heart, Pſal. 51.17. of Alms, Heb. 13.16. by preſenting their bodies a living ſacrifice unto him, Rom. 12.1. by mortifying inordinate affections and evil concupiſcence, Col. 3.5. and by offering themſelves89 as dying Sacrifices for Chriſts ſake, Phil. 2.17. when they ſhall be called unto it. Thus we are not aſhamed to own the name Prieſt, but take it for a term of honour, both in the native ſenſe of the word, and uſe of the Goſpel: yet ſo we do not appropriate it to our ſelves, nor can they impoſe it upon us in any ſignification which hath affinity with a literal Sacrifice, either Jewiſh or Popiſh. In which reſpect, and becauſe in the New Teſtament Goſpel-Miniſters are never called Priests (as by a peculiar Title) Archbiſhop Whitgift in his laſt Book againſt Mr. Cartwright, p. 722. Mr. Hookers Eccleſ. Polit. lib. 5. parag. 77. p. 419. ſpeak rather againſt, than for the uſe of it, as ſo limited to reſtrained.
The Prieſthood of this Nation (ſaith he) are proved to be a company of covetous greedy dogs, that never have enough. Page 34.And where good Sir, is that proved? or when will it be proved? ad Graecas calendas? not before. But why doth he thus bark at, yea bite the Miniſtry under the Title of Prieſthood? It is very like he thought his Maſter, Mr. Saltmarſh, had proved it, or could prove it, when he confidently demanded, What is the maintenance of Miniſters by Tithes, but Jewiſh and Popiſh undeniably? This is ſome of the vaniſhing vapour of his Pamphlet, which he calleth The““Pag. 25. See the Anſw. to it in my Light for his Smoke, p. 19. Exam. p. 123. Smoke of the Temple.
Afterwards Mr. O. reneweth this Reproch again in theſe words, O ye Prieſts! ye violently claſp and gripe into your clutches (to maintain you in Lordly Pomp) the Tenths; nay, if all conſidered, the fifth part of the Nations increaſe, and poor mens labours, though many from whom you exact them, can hardly get bread for their Families. It is an eaſie matter to make this ſaving Doctrine of Tithes, as well as the other of Univerſal Grace, plauſible to carnal and covetous peple; and with ſuch, to aggravate the denial of the one, and aſſertion of the other to an high degree of hatred. But we look for Reaſon, not Railing, to evince the unlawfulneſs of Tithes, and with Mr. O. and his party, not ſo impotently to rail, prattle or ſcrible againſt them, as they uſe to do, but ſeriouſly and ſolidly to ſet upon the Confutation of thoſe which plead their lawful Tenure, againſt their cavils and clamours who except againſt them. And becauſe it may be they know not who they be, if they have any heart to undertake90 ſuch a Task, they may be better acquainted with them by the Catalogue at the end of this Diſcourſe. And if the Books be too many for them to meddle with, let them confute but three of them; one of Sir Clement Spelman an Engliſh, another of Sir James Sempell a Scottiſh Knight, the third of Mr. Prynne. I chooſe them before others, not onely becauſe they have written very ſufficiently and fully of the point in queſtion, but becauſe they cannot be juſtly ſuſpected of partiality, ſince none of them ever had any Miniſterial Function for their Calling, nor any Miniſterial Maintenance for their Living: And if they will confine themſelves to one onely, let it be that of M. Prynne, whoſe integrity hat been eminently tried, and yet was never tainted. And that they may preſently perceive what his Tenet is, I will ſet down the ſummary Contents of his Book, as he hath ſet it forth in the Title-page. But beſides Mr. O. his quarrel againſt the maintenance of Miniſters, he chargeth them with Covetouſneſs in an exceſſive degree, calling them greedy dogs, who can never have enough.
A Goſpel Plea (interwoven with a Rational and Legal) for the Lawfulneſs and continuance of the ancient ſetled Maintenance and Tenths of the Miniſters of the Goſpel; proving, That there is a juſt, competent, comfortable Maintenance due to all lawful, painful Preachers and Miniſters of the Goſpel, by Divine Right, Inſtitution, and expreſs Texts and Precepts of the Goſpel; That Glebes & Tithes are ſuch a maintenance, and due to Miniſters by Divine Right, Law and Goſpel; That if ſubſtracted or detained, they may lawfully be inforced by coercive Laws & Penalties; That Tithes are no real burden nor grievance to the people; The aboliſhing them no benefit to Farmers, Husbandmen, or poor people, but a prejudice and loſs; That the preſent oppoſition againſt Tithes proceeds not from any real grounds of Conſcience, but baſe covetouſneſs, carnal policy, and a Jeſuitical and Anabaptiſtical deſign to ſubvert and ruine our Miniſters, Church, Religion. With a ſatisfactory Anſwer to all Cavils and material Objections to the contrary. By William Pryn of Swainſwick Eſq.
Words bad enough for Hippolitus Cardinall of Medicis,Hiſt. of the Councel of Trent, lib. 2. p. 251. Pope Clement the ſevenths Nephew, who had by his gift all the Benefices of91 the world, Secular and Regular Dignities and Parſonages, ſimple and with Cure, being vacant, for ſix meneths, to begin from the firſt day of his poſſeſſion, with power to diſpoſe and convert to his uſe all the Fruits:
Or bad enough for the Popiſh Prieſts in King Henry the eighths time, againſt whom theſe Articles, with divers others,Mart. Hiſt. of 20 Kings, pag. 381, 382. were exhibited: Beſides their Eccleſiaſtical Bentfices, they became Farmers of great Granges, taking them in Leaſe in every Shire, and became Husbandmen and Graſiers, many of them kept Tanning-houſes, and were Brokers, Buyers and Ingroſſers, ſnatching up all, and inforcing Tradeſmen to buy thoſe Commodities at the ſecond or third hand at unreaſonable prices; yea, divers ignorant men among them held and enjoyed 8, 10.12, yea more Benefices and Spiritual promotions ſeverally, and yet lived not upon any of them.
Too bad for ſuch as were under the Biſhops Government, when one man had two Benefices, a Deanry, and an Arch-deaconry, as D. D. of A. and ſome had more both in value and variety than he had. But ſince by the late Reformation Pluralities are taken away by Authority, and Miniſters are now confined to, and contented with the Revenue of a ſingle Incumbency, (and ſome of them I am ſure refuſed to be doublebeneficed while the Law did allow them) what ground or colour can Mr. O. have for ſuch an outragious Reproch? or what motive, but his own malice, and the inſtinct of the accuſer of the Brethren, Rev. 12.10. thus all-to-be-ſlander them, not onely in condemning their Title to Tithes as Jewiſh and Popiſh (as before is obſerved) but in charging them with claſping and griping into their Clutches a fifth part of the Nations increaſe? Wherein
Yet he hath not done with the ſlander of Covetouſneſs, for to render the Parochial Miniſters more worthy of reproch, and leſs capable of excuſe for that Crime, and indeed hopeleſs of all cure. His next Charge, That this iniquity came in with the firſt foundation of Parochial Diviſions; and ſo as he ſaith, though moſt untruly and abſurdly of Churches, it will follow it cannot be reformed.
Fifthly, Therefore to give you his own words,Exam. p. 32. The end why England was first divided into pariſhes, was, at firſt, to diſtinguiſh the flock aſunder, that ſo the ſhepherds, or rather the ſheep-ſhearers, ſaith he, might know where to look for their fleeces. And to this he addeth a Marginal Note, as corrupt a Gloſs as the Text, and the Note is this, A work they can well enough away with ſtill, or94 any thing elſe that makes for their honour or profit, the two things on which the Prieſthood — moveth. Was that the firſt or chiefe end of dividing England into Pariſhes? what proof have you of that Mr. O? your ſecond-hand citation of Mr. Saltmarſh out of the book of learned Mr. Selden De Decimis? I believe you have no better: and how little credit is to be given to that Teſtimony (as you bring it in) you may read by review of mine anſwer to it.
If you had read Mr. S. you might have learned to make a more charitable conſtruction of limiting publick Miniſtries, and allowing maintenance for Miniſters,Selden Hiſt. of Tithes. c. 9. p. 259. who writeth thus of them: when devotion grew firmer, and most Lay-men of fair estates deſired the Country-reſidence of ſome Chaplains, who before lived in common with the Biſhops, that they might be alwayes ready for inſtruction of them, their families and adjoyning Tenants, &c. That was the firſt and chief end of building Oratories and Churches, and of endowing them with peculiar maintenance from the founders for the Incumbents, which ſhould there only reſide: and where we read of the diviſion of the Province of Canterbury into Pariſhes by Honorius Arch-Biſhop thereof: the reaſon rendered is, that he might appoint particular Miniſters to particular Congregations: thoſe are the words of the**Godwins Catalogue of Biſhops. p 52. Eccleſ. Hiſtorian, which point to the work of the Miniſter among the people in the Church, not to his reward from the people, either in the fields of corn, or flocks of ſheep.
He hath many other reviling terms, which brought together, would make a great bundle of unſavoury weeds: but I paſs over, conceiving a leſs proportion like a poyſie, may ſuffice to ſhew the bitterneſs of his ſpirit towards Miniſters, and Churches in general. I will adde but one reproch more againſt Doctor Brian in particular, which I may not omit to remember and refute;Exam. p. 29. it is in the Epilogue of his latter Book: Had I time, as I have not (ſaith he) by being maintained like you by the ſweat of other mens brows, as I deſire not, &c. In which words are implicitly compriſed a Negative Theſis, that a man, eſpecially a Miniſter, ſhould not be maintained by the ſweat of other mens brows; and a Poſitive Hypotheſis that Doctor Brian is ſo maintained.
95For the firſt; if ſince God layd the Law upon Adam, that in the ſweat of his face he ſhall eat bread, Gen. 3.19. it hath been unlawful for one man, eſpecially for Miniſters, to live by the labours of the people, why did God maintain his worſhip by the Miniſtry of the Levites in that manner all along the old Teſtament? and if it be unlawful under the new Teſtament for Evangelical Miniſters to be corporally ſupported by thoſe who are ſpiritually inſtructed by them; why did the Apoſtle ſay, 1 Cor. 9.11. If we have ſowen unto you ſpiritual things, is it much, if we reap your carnal things? And doth not Solomon ſay, the King himſelf is ſerved by the field, Eccleſ. 5 9. and yet he doth not, nor is it fit he ſhould put his hand to the plow as you do? nay it is ſo far from being a fault, to live by the labour of another, that we muſt one labour for another, in one kind or other: and there is a ſweat of the brain as well as of the brow; And you, methinks Mr. O. ſhould experimentally know them both to be painful, and that of the brain more painful of the two, unleſs you preach by Enthuſiaſme, without any ſtudy: for of the ſleep of a labouring man, Solomon ſaith, it is ſweet, Eccleſ. 5 12. (i. e. ) the bodily labour: but the labour of the brain will not ſuffer; and the fault is not for a King or a Councellor, or a Judge, or a Warriour, a Miniſter, or an Artificer to live by the ſweat of the Husbandmans brows; for without his labour no ſociety of men could ſubſiſt: but to live idle like a Drone among the Bees, to take no pains for his living; for ſuch idle perſons ſhould not live by the Apoſtles ſentence; when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither ſhould he eat, 2 Theſ. 3.10. This for Mr. O. his Theſis; now for his Hypotheſis, as to Doctor Brian compared with himſelfe; he is not (ſaith he) maintained like Doctor Brian, with the ſweat of other mens brows, if he mean that he liveth idle, ſo as not to deſerve his maintenance of thoſe for whom he labours, he knows neither his worth nor his work: if he did, and were (as he is) an Adverſary, and as ſuch an one, would not withhold the truth in unrighteouſneſs, as Rom. 1.18. he would confeſs him as able, as painful, powerful and profitable a Miniſter (no diſparagement to any) as any of his knowledge this day in England, and well worthy of a far more liberal ſalary96 then he receiveth; for beſides his preachings, which are very frequent, both on the Sabbath, and on the week day, he catechizeth dayly from houſe to houſe every perſon in every family within his pariſh, and yet doth much good ſervice in other places, as juſt occaſion requireth, and opportunity ſerveth, both as a learned man, and as a godly Miniſter: and were he Miniſter of a Country Pariſh, where Mr. O. labours as an Husbandman, I would endeavour to perſwade him to pay him Tithes, with the words of Augustine, that worthy African Doctor, and famous Diſputant,Meus eſt homo quem feci, mea eſt terra quam colis, mea ſunt ſemina quae ſpargis, mea animalia quae fatigas, meae ſunt imbres & pluviae, & ventorum flamina mea ſunt, meus eſt ſolis calor; & cùm omnia m•a ſunt elementa vivendi, tu qui manus accommodas, ſolum decimum merebaris: Deus ſibi tantum decimum vendicans, nobis omnia donavit, ingrate fraudator & perſide, &c. Aug. de Temp. Serm. 219. Tom. 10. p. 640. or rather the words of God, for he ſpeaks in his name to the Husbandman: Mine is man whom I have made; mine is the earth which thou tilleſt; mine is the ſeed which thou diſperſeſt; mine are the cattel which thou wearieſt in tillage; mine are the ſhowrs of rain which moyſten the earth, and make it fruitful; mine are the blaſts of winds which fan the air; mine is the heat of the Sun, which warms both earth, and ſeeds, and plants, and makes them grow; and when all the Elements of life are mine, thou who only lendeſt thy hand to all theſe means, and deſervedſt but a Tenth, haſt nine parts, and God hath reſerved but a Tenth for himſelf, and wilt thou withhold that, thou ungrateful and perfidious wretch, wilt thou defraud him of that? pay to God the tenth, leſt he bring thee to the tenth, &c.
The next ill quality which I ſhall note in Mr. O. is his Partiality, whereof I will give three Teſtimonies in ſtead of many more, which I might produce out of his examination of the Doctors Reply; one at the beginning of it in his Epiſtle, as he ſtileth it, To the impartial Reader, to which it might be truly added, From a moſt partial Writer: There he ſpeaketh much againſt Epiſtolary prejudice, to make the Readers to reject the opinion which the Writer oppoſeth, when himſelf is ſo forward to commit the ſame fault, that he is guilty of it in the Title page, where he anticipateth the Readers judgement of the cauſe (before it be heard) with notorious calumnies of his adverſaries part of the difference and egregious flatteries of his own in theſe words which I have cited in part**At pag. 126. before under another97 Title, and to another purpoſe: but in this place it will not be impertinent to ſet forth more fully his malignant partiality.
Doctor Brians Reply to the Anſwer of his ten firſt Arguments, levied (ſaith he) to prove the Pariſhes of this Nation true Churches, Examined.
The invalidity of all his anſwers, his ſophiſtical helps, impertinent ſelf-contradicting allegations are preſented to himſelf and others, to the clearer diſcovery of the Popiſh, Political, Antichriſtian, and like preſent conſtitution of the Parochial Aſſemblies of this Nation, having yet never been true Churches from their very foundation, nor poſſible to be made true by Reformation, having had never yet any true Geſpel-conſtitution.
As alſo the Antichriſtian Call, Entrance, Doctrine, &c. of the National Ministry in part unvailed.
With a Confirmation of ſome of thoſe precious Apoſtolical truths, ſo vehemently cried down as Heretical, ſo far as directly or occaſionally there was way made for their vindication; By J. O. an unworthy ſervant of Jeſus Chriſt, and of his poor deſpiſed Church. To which he annexeth two Texts of Scripture, Jer. 15.14, 15. and Revel. 18.11, 15. both againſt Babylon.
That which in all this is principally now to be noted is his palpable partiality, and moſt apparent contradiction betwixt the contents of his Title page, and his Epiſtle to the Reader: but withall, I might obſerve many groſs untruths, both againſt the Doctor and the Churches, owned and defended by him, and againſt the Call, Entrance, and Doctrine of the National Miniſtry, which he calleth Antichriſtian; when, for ought I can perceive by the printed Diſputation, or his Examination, he doth not know who is Antichriſt, or what is Antichriſtian. But98 theſe are met withal elſewhere in this diſcourſe, as juſt occaſion required. For the preſent I ſhall only commend unto the Reader this obſervation of Mr. John Onley and his adherents, viz. that moſt indiſcreetly and abſurdly they uſually renounce that which in the Romaniſts is agreeable to the Dictates of Reaſon, Conſcience, and Scripture, as Popiſh and Antithriſtian, as I have already ſhewed in this Chapter, and agree with them in that which is truely popiſh and Antichriſtian, as Error, Pride, Schiſme, Cenſoriouſneſs, Malice, Slander, ſophiſtical Subtilty, as their writings and doings do declare, eſpecially Mr. J. O. in his dealing with Doctor Brian, in his unfaithful publication of the diſputation at Kenelmworth, and in his other bitter and inſolent Book of Examination afterward.
The ſecond proof of his partiality is this; when Doctor Brian hath proved our Churches of England to be true Churches of Chriſt by convincing arguments;Nam quae non proſunt ſingula, juncta valent. Diſp. p. 6. (convincing if taken together, though all of them be not of equal evidence and vigour•) all that avails nothing towards Mr. O. his ſatisfaction, unleſs he prove an impertinency to the Queſtion, viz. That they were true Churches from their very foundation, that is, as he explaineth himſelf more fully elſewhere, that all the pariſhes of this Nation, in their first diviſion into Pariſhes were viſible Saints, and that thoſe Churches gathered by preaching onely 500.Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply. p. 30, 37. Ibid. p. 24. Diſp. p. 5. years before Auguſtine the Monk, were ſuch as our Pariſhes now are, or that they are ſuch now, as they were then: and this he maketh the life of the Doctors cauſe; and if he prove not this (ſaith he) he doth nothing, whereas it is neither the life nor limb of his cauſe; no, neither hair nor nail of it; neither a skirt nor an hem: but indeed meet nothing to the purpoſe. And therefore the Doctor did juſtly and diſcreetly decline it as impertinent, ſaying, it is our Churches preſent, not their primitive ſtate which I undertake to vindicate; and this upon very good reaſon. For,
Firſt, The Churches, whoſe primitive conſtitution was the beſt and neareſt to that of the Apoſtler, both in time, matter, and form, as that of Jeruſalem, Rome, Antioch, and the Churches of Aſia, long ſince are fallen from the faith, and have unchurched themſelves by their Apoſtaſie.
Secondly, It is but a Jeſuitical evaſion from the pertinency and99 life of the cauſe of a true Chriſtian Church, to wave the preſent qualifications and notes of it, and to put all the weight and ſtreſs of the trial upon the Hiſtorical report of precedent times; as while we prove our Church to be a true Church, and our Faith a true Faith by the Scriptures, as Doctor Featley d•d againſt Fiſher the Jeſuite, that would be taken for no good proof with him, unleſs he deduced the viſibility of the Proteſtant Profeſſors, through all ages from the Apoſtles to Luthers time; and he profeſſed he would not proceed in the diſpute, unleſs that were firſt done, as is obſerved before.
Thirdly, If it were pertinent, and were alſo proved by Chronological Hiſtory, it would ſerve but to make up a meer Humane and Hiſtorical Faith, which is not effectual to Salvation; and the doubt of it where it is required and not proved (as it is no eaſie matter to do) may raiſe perplexing doubts and fears of ſalvation in weak, though well-minded Chriſtians; as cauſing ſuſpicious conceits of their being in a true Church, out of which, as out of Noahs Ark (the common ſaying is) none are ſaved.
Yet this unſound and groundleſs aſſertion of his, which hath neither proof of Scripture, Reaſon, or of any humane Author of credit or account, be not onely putteth into the very front of his Examination (frontinulla fides) but repeateth it over and over, both in the Diſputation and Examination, to puzzle the ſimple Hearers of the one, and Readers of both;Diſp. p. 1, 6, 7, 12. Exam. p. 11, 12, 13, 24, 27, 28, 30, 37. and to make them believe that there was ſomewhat in it, which made the Doctor afraid to meddle with it; whereas it was a meer extravagancy from the queſtion in hand, which to ſuch as are intelligent, ſhews Mr. O. to be a Jeſuitical ſhifter; and that he may appear more and worſe then a Jeſuite, he taketh upon him to be a Pope, peremptorily defining tanquam ex Cathedra Peſtilentiae, not only that our Churches have never been true Churches from the foundation of them, but that it is not poſſible for them to be made true by reformation. Thus in the Title page of his Examination, wherein his ignorance, confidence, and imprudence are all of them ſuperlative, and worthy of none other anſwer then a ſcornful ſilence.
Yet the other part of his partiality which now I am to prove,100 will implicitly at leaſt confute it fully; for he that is ſo injurious, as to impoſe upon the Doctor ſuch an impertinency, as the life of his cauſe, and to regard none of his proofs, though never ſo pregnant, for the truth of our Churches, is ſo gracious to his own ſide, as to reſolve that a true Church may be conſtituted thus, A company of true Believers aſſembled in the Name of Christ, willing to follow him in the way of his ordinances revealed in his word, and yet ſeeing their want of a perſonal ſucceſſion, and yet knowing it their duty, and the will of Chriſt, it ſhould be performed, did appoint one that was unbaptized to reaſſume and ſet afoot this ordinance of Chriſt. And if ſo, how partial is Mr. O. who makes it impoſſible for our Churches to be made true by any reformation? for how eaſie a matter is it for Churches to be reformed after that manner?
The third partiality of Mr. O. appeareth in his Epiſtle to his Schiſmatical Siſter-Churches, where he taketh upon him to make a long Paraphraſe on the words of Ananias to Saul, Acts 22.18. but when Doctor Brian makes but a ſhort one on the words of Peter, Acts 2.39. The promiſe is made to you and to your Children: ſaying, if the promiſe be made to believers and their children, the command muſt reach not only to them but to their children, as running thus, be baptized you and your children, for the promiſe is made to you and to your children.
To this Mr. O. in a jeering manner replye••, As if Peter Were not wiſe enough to expreſs his own meaning, to direct us who ſhould be, or the grounds upon which they ſhould be baptized, without your prieſtly prudence: ſurely might you have come to the honour, or been worthy to have been a Dictator to Peter, you would have taught him to have ſaid ſome what from whence Infants right of Baptiſm might have been proved. With this partiality appeareth a ſpice of his inſolency formerly obſerved. But if Doctor B•ian had been worthy, and had taken upon him to play the Dictator, he had acted that part a great deal better, by deducing Infants Baptiſme from the words of Peter, then Mr. O. did, dictating ſuch an Aphoriſm out of his own fancy, concerning neceſſary recourſe to the primitive conſtitution of a Church, to prove it to be a true Church at preſent, which we have now examined and refuted.
101The fourth partiality I ſhall mention is this; he will not be turned over by Dr. Brian to Mr. Hollingworth for ſatisfaction concerning the name Pariſh, and parochial precincts;Exam p. 22, 23. Diſp. p. 48. yet in a matter of greater difficulty (as the ſetting up of Church-ordinances by an unbapt zed perſon) he turns his Reader over to an obſcure Treatiſe, entitled, The way to Zion: and Doctor Brian citing Mr. Baxters 27 Arguments for Church-memberſhip, Mr. O. puts him off with Mr. Fiſhers Reply,Exam. p. 128. in his imagination proving the contrary, where he hath this ill hap to make his reference, and to beſtow a commendable Epithet upon a Quaker (for ſuch an one is Mr. Fiſher now become) and as ſuch an one Mr. O. muſt be a ſharp adverſary againſt him,Epiſt. p. 15, 16, 17. Diſp. p. 15, 18, 19. Exam. p 32, 38, 39, 42, 43, 45, 47, 50. unleſs he will be partial in that alſo; for he writes ſharply againſt the Quakers. But Mr. Baxter is a more rational, religious, ſound, and ſetled Divine, then that there can be any fear at all that he will ever turn or become ſo wretched a changeling.
I will take but one exception more out of the two Books of his publication, and that is concerning the Civil Magiſtrate, againſt the exerciſe of whoſe authority in matters of Religion he often uttereth his diſlike, eſpecially as it is aſſiſtant to Miniſters in the Miniſterial function; whereof I will mention but one paſſage of ſome importance,Exam. p. 53. margin. though it be with him but in a Marginal note, which is this; [The Sword of the Magiſtrate being your beſt relief, without which I think you would live but a while.] Whereof his meaning may be, that their authority maintains the Miniſters publick maintenance, without which they could not ſubſiſt. But conſider the ſpightful ſpirit of him and his Sect againſt them, as ſuppoſing them and their Churches to be Romiſh, Popiſh, Antichriſtian, and Babyloniſh; and ſo would have them uſed no better then Babylon (but would ſtir up mortal enemies againſt them, as againſt her, according to that of J•r. 50.14, 15. in the Text ſet in the Title page of Mr. O. his examination) there is a juſt cauſe of jealouſie, by that ſpeech, of as malicious a meaning as may be towards them, becauſe of the affinity of their principles with thoſe of the Donatiſts, and of their conſanguinity in practice with the bloody-minded**Ad hanc haereſin, id eſt, Donatiſt. •in Africa, & illi pertinent qui appellantur Circumcellinnes, genus homi•ū agreſte, & famoſiſſimae audaciae, non ſolum in a lios immania facinora perpetrando, ſed, &c. Aug. d•haereſ. Tom 6. p. 33. Circumcellions, to which Sect they are ſorted by Augustine in his Catalogue of Her•ſies.
WHat was my mind (in anſwering your requeſt by your Son when he brought you Letter, the Diſputation at Kenelmworth, and Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply, after the reading of what you ſent me, and writing of theſe Papers I now ſend you) in the ſame I perſiſt with ſtronger confidence then I had at firſt; and for it I ſhall now give you clearer and fuller evidence of the expedience of my Advice then at that time I could do, which was the ſame that Hezekiah gave to his people concerning railing Sabſhtkah, anſwer him not, a Kings 18.16. and Iſa. 36.21.
My Reaſons are,
First, I thought you came much below the elevation of your own worth, when you entred the Liſts with an illiterate man, as Mr. J. O. is, albeit of a wrangling wit; though there was a kind of neceſsity I confeſs at that time, for the exerciſe of your humility upon his proud challenge, as of your ingenuity and ability in the conflict.
Secondly, I ſuſpected your confidence in committing the copy of your diſpute to his publication by the Preſs, would be abuſed by him, and ſo I believe it was more wayes then one, as I have ſhewed.
Thirdly, I ſaw the arrogancy of the mans ſpirit in the Title page of his Examination, which made me deem him an indocible Sophiſter, far from the good mind of Hierom, who deſired103 proficiency in what is good, and to change his mind from any thing that is bad. Utinam mihi ſic ſemper diſputare contingat, ut ad meliora proficiens — deſeram quod malè tenebam. Hieron. •dve•ſus Luciſerian. vol. 2. p. 147. Diſp p. 33.Your ſelfe had ſome experience of his refractory humour; when though he did or might have heard from your mouth a ſatisfactory diſcourſe, in vindication of the Miniſtry of England, wherein all that he had objected, and much more was fully anſwered; yet he ſaid, that you would not, or could not prove it a true Miniſtry.
Fourthly, I obſerved how perverſely he dealt with you, in impoſing unreaſonable conditions upon you in diſputation, wherein if you did not ſatisfie him, all you did was nothing; whereas that with him of ſo great moment was nothing to the purpoſe, as I have ſhewed: and in a wilful refuſal to conſult with any Author of your propoſal for his ſatisfaction. You turn me over to Mr. Hollingworth (ſaith he) in anſwer to which ſhift, I tell you once more, in that path I will not follow you; for in this controverſial age, ſo many books have been written on both ſides, if we ſhould take this way, when ſhould we anſwer our ſelves? To return each other to others works, you may find me (and I could you as eaſily) work till you are weary, to anſwer all books,Mr. O. Exam. p. 22, 23. pro and con, about this ſubject; then in doing of which (ſeeing enough is ſaid already) I hope to employ my ſelf better.
For what you ſhall anſwer your ſelf, either of your ſelf, or by the pens of others tranſcribed for your ſelf, let it be Mr. Hollingworth,Ibid. or who it will be, I will not decline the anſwering thereunto; but at your return to them I will not go, it being you I deal with. Wherein refuſing your offer, he renders a reaſon which makes againſt him, viz becauſe in this controverſial age, ſo many books be written on both ſides; why then ſhould any more be added by you and him of the ſame controverſie, when they have been more accurately diſcuſſed already by writing and printing, then by polemical concertation in diſcourſe (whereof much is meerly extemporary) they are like to be? And he ſaith, he hopeth to employ himſelf better; and if he can employ himſelf better then by reading ſuch Books, as were adviſedly and deliberately dictated, to ſatisfie ſuch as doubt, and ſettle doubtful Readers in the truth in queſtion; ſure you may employ your ſelf better, then in putting your ſelf to the pains and expence of time, to write out Arguments and Anſwers for his ſutisfaction; becauſe104 he wants the books you direct him to, or will not be at coſt to buy them, or trouble to peruſe them; and if he did read them, would bring a reſolution rather to cavil at them, then to receive reſolution from them. When you have leiſure to waſh a Black-moor, you may ſpare ſome time to ſpend upon your ſelf-conceited and ſelf-willed adverſary Mr. J. O. for ſuch an one will every judicious man judge him to be, who reads with indifferency the Diſputation and Examination publiſhed by him againſt you.
Fifthly, you have too much precious work in your hands every day, then that you can warrantably lay any part of it aſide, to contend with ſuch an obſtinate adverſary as Mr. Onley is; and I am verily perſwaded, and I aſſure my ſelf, many that know your various and unceſſant pains for the ſouls of your people of Coventry, are of my mind, that thereby you do more good in a week there, then you ſhall do by diſputing with, or writing againſt a perverſe Anabaptiſt a whole year together.
Sixthly, There are ſo many now engaged in the defence of the Churches of Chriſt (for now Mr. O. ſets himſelf againſt all the Churches of Europe, and New England, beſides Old England) that ſo much work cannot in reaſon fall to your ſhare, as ſtill to manage the defence of them all againſt him, or any ſuch obſtreperous talker; eſpecially having ſuch a weighty burden of paſtoral employment continually upon you.
Seventhly, If you ſhould ſet all aſide, and encounter him at the Preſs, as you have done by Diſputation in the Church, it would be to little purpoſe or profit, both in reſpect of Mr. O. and of his party. For,
Firſt for him, unleſs you anſwer him in every particular how impertinent ſoever, you ſhall ſtill be under his exception and inſultation, to the great prejudice both of your cauſe & perſon; for he not onely taxeth you for deficient anſwering already, ſaying, to a great part of his anſwer you have not ſaid one word, and that your Reply paſſeth over juſt half his Anſwer, without a word of Reply. Exam. of Dr. •…. Rep. p. 28. Ibid. p. 115.But ſuch is his inſolency, that (as if he had authority to preſcribe your part of the controverſie, as well as to diſpoſe of his own) he layeth this ſevere Law upon you, if you conteſt105 with him again, exactly to anſwer to each particular plainly and downrightly by reaſons and Scriptures directly to the purpoſe, or elſe to confeſs you cannot, by ſaying nothing. Neither ſo nor ſo; For datur tertium, a man may ſilently pais by an eſpecial part of his Book written in defence of a precious truth,Mr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply, p. 69. as he phraſeth it, that is, Univerſal Redemption, becauſe it is diſcovered to be a pernicious error, and abundantly confuted by Doctor Kendall, in anſwer to M. John Goodwins Book called Redemption Redeemed; and another part as impertinent as that ſo often inculcated poſition of Mr. O. Of the firſt conſtitution of Churches; and another part is anſwered by Dr. Br. before, as that for the Vindication of the Miniſtry of England: no need then of confeſſing you can ſay nothing,Diſp. p. 33. becauſe you do not ſay all things as he appointeth you. Mr. Fiſher made a more modeſt reſolution concerning his adverſary and himſelf; If any one anſwer (ſaith he) and I have ſatisfaction from him to the contrary, he ſhall hear of my Recantation; if I have not, he ſhall ſee it by my ſilence. Mr. Fiſher in his anſwer to Nobody in 5 words. p 465.So may you better ſignifie your diſſatisfaction with Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply by your ſilence, then endeavour his ſatisfaction by a printed anſwer unto it, and that upon his reaſon, viz becauſe he would not loſe any more time from preaching, at I ſee I must (ſaith he) if I meddle any more at the Preſs with this ſubject.
Secondly, It would be to as little purpoſe and profit, in reſpect of his party,Veſtra ſolum legitis, veſtra amatis, caetera causâ incognitâ condemnatis. Cicer. l. 2. de natur. deorum. p. 216. Medicamenta neſciunt, & inſani ſunt adverſus antidotum quâ ſani eſſe potuiſſent, Aug. confeſſ. l. 9. c. 4. who are ſo poſſeſſed with prejudice againſt your cauſe by their teachers, odious invectives and exclamations againſt you, your Church and Miniſtry as Popiſh and Antichriſtian, that they will not onely not buy, but not ſo much as look upon an Apology for you, being ſick of the perverſe partiality which the Orator reproveth in ſome Philoſophical Hereticks of his time, You read onely what is written for your own ſide (ſaith he) and love onely what is your own, for other things you condemn them, the cauſe unheard. And as Aguſtine obſerveth of ſome of like diſtempered paſſions, though ſo much the worſe, as errors in Divinity are worſe then errors in Philoſophy: They know not what is Phyſick for them, and are mad (ſaith he) againſt the Medicine which ſhouldoure them of their madneſs. Such are many of the beſotted Proſelytes of ſeducing Teachers of the preſent age.
106In reſpect of ſuch froward and perverſe oppoſites, as both they and they leaders (for the moſt part) manifeſt themſelves, ſilence may ſometimes be more ſeaſonable then Replications and Rejoynders: for,Quorum dicta contraria ſi toties refellere velimus, quoties obnixa fronte ſtatuerunt non carere quid dicant, dum quomodocunque noſtris diſputationibus contradicant, quàm infinitum & aerumnoſum & infructuoſum? &c. Aug. de Civit. Dei l. 2. c. 1. Tom. 1. p. 63. as Auguſtine putteth the caſe, If we ſhould ſet our ſelves to refell the contrary Tenets of thoſe who have hardned their foreheads, ſo as to reſolve they will have ſomewhat to ſay, ſo they may any way gainſay our disputations, how endleſs, how grievous, how unprofitable will our trouble be?
Eighthly, If there were a neceſſity that Mr. O. ſhould be further anſwered by you, or ſome body for you, you have three Sons, the youngeſt of whom would be able enough to undertake him by an Examination and Conviction of his Examination of error and ſlander, of pride and vanity: but neither would I have any of them put to ſo unprofitable a Task, becauſe I hear they are all of them dayly employed in better work. Therefore,
Ninthly, If after theſe Animadverſions upon him and his Book, it be requiſite to take any further courſe to take down the Tympany of Mr. O. his ſwelling ſelf-conceit, I ſhall propoſe it to the ſerious conſiderations of our Venerable Society, at their meeting at Kenelmworth, to invite him to a publick Diſputation there once again, to be ordered and managed according to the Rules forementioned. So you have mine advice as you deſired, with what I further promiſed; for which, if any thing be worthy of your acceptance and theirs, who are our Brethren in intereſt and affection to the cauſe wherein you firſt, and now I am publickly engaged, I deſire your thanks to God for it, and prayers for me.
I have more then theſe, and there are ſome more which I have not, but theſe may ſuffice.
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