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LIGHT FOR SMOKE: OR, A CLEARE AND DISTINCT REPLY by IOHN LEY, One of the Aſſembly of Divines at WESTMINSTER, TO A DARKE AND CONFVSED Anſwer in a Booke made, and intituled The Smoke in the Temple, by Iohn Saltmarſh, late Preacher at Braſteed in Kent, now revolted both from his Paſto­rall calling and charge.

Pſal. 37. verſ. 6.

He ſhall bring forth thy righteouſneſſe as the light, and thy iudgement as the noone day.

Whereto is added, Novello-maſtix, or a Scourge for a ſcurrilous News-monger.

LONDON, Printed by I. L. for Chriſtopher Meredith, at the ſigne of the Crane in Pauls Church-yard. 1646.

TO THE RIGHT VVORSHIPFVL, Sr. VVILLIAM STRICKLAND KNIGHT, and HERBOTTLE GRIMSTON Eſquire, two worthy Members of the Honourable Houſe of COMMONS.

Right worthy Sirs,

I Preſented you with a former Booke againſt Mr. Saltm. his Remora to the Reformation in hand, as I did other mine honoured and worthy friends; this I offer to your view as to Judges of the difference betwixt him and me, as it hath been a gradu­ate by the preſſe from an Anſwer to Reply, from that to a Rejoynder, where for the preſent the period is fix­ed, and for my part it ſhall be to me as an Herculean pillar, (beyond which I will not ſayle) and this reſo­lution with my Reaſons I have imparted to Mr. Saltm. in a particular Epiſtle to himſelfe. But though I pro­ceed no further with him in the reciprocation of Re­plyes, you may be pleaſed, having acquaintance with him, as he maketh his addreſſes to you, or as any op­portunitie preſenteth him before you, to contribute ſome of your diſcreet counſels for better imploy­ment of his parts and pen, then in crying downe that Diſcipline and Government, as terrible and ty­rannicall, which the prudent Senators of both the Honourable Houſes of Parliament in part have ſet up, and further endeavour to advance; and in dam­ning the maintenance of Miniſters as Antichriſtian and Iewiſh, which the ſame authoritie by many ancient Acts, and your ſelves with your Honourable Aſſo­ciats by a late Ordinance have eſtabliſhed.

For the former, I profeſſe unto you, it is matter of wonder unto me, how any man can have the face to make ſuch out-cryes againſt the Government, as he and ſome others doe, as if it were more formidable then Prelaticall domination in the higheſt degree; when every Biſhop by his own power ſet out Articles in his Viſitation, concerning all aberrations from Ec­cleſiaſticall Canons, whether ſinnes or no ſinnes, and by a meere Arbitrary power made many times crimes of duties, as preaching in the afternoone of the Sab­bath day; and duties of crimes, as Reading the Book for Recreations and ſports on that Day; and conven­ted, and cenſured all ſorts of perſons, (by his ſole Ju­riſdiction) ſentencing whom he would to ſuſpenſion, and excommunication, impoſed Orders of Penance with ordinary Fees, and extraordinary Commutati­ons, ſometimes at no leſſe then 100 or 200 pound price; beſides the additionall power of Juſtice-ſhip of Peace, and the High Commiſſion, whereby the two Archbiſhops, and as many as in either Province they made choice of, to be Aſſeſſors to them on that dreadfull Tribunall puniſhed, as they thought meet, with fine and impriſonment, with great fines, and long impriſonment, many times for ſmall faults, and ſometimes for none at all; whereby ſome of them carryed their concurrent authoritie with ſuch cun­ning, that moſt were overawed by it, knowing it was great and various, and not knowing, for the moſt part, when they did act by one power, when by an­other.

And can our Anti-presbyterian oppoſites ſay that any ſingle Presbyter, any Presbytery Parochiall, Claſ­ſicall, or Provinciall, aſſume any ſuch juriſdiction, or power, either over mens perſons or eſtates? Is not ſuſpenſion from the Sacrament, and Excommunica­tion from the Church the utmoſt authoritie they claime? and is this any more then they that both con­demne, and contemne the Presbytery, of their own free-will, or ſelf-will doe unto themſelves?

It is ſaid by ſome, that to ſet up Presbytery in ſtead of Prelacy is to multiplie Clergie maſters over the people, and for one Biſhop in a Dioceſſe to ſet up ma­ny, in ſome no fewer then a thouſand for one; But they ſhould conſider that all the Eccleſiaſticall autho­rity of a Dioceſſe united in one Biſhop, as in an Epiſco­pall Sea, was as the river**Cyrus Gynden late fuſum amnem vado tran­ſire tentavit: ibt unus ex equis qui trahere re­gium currum albi ſolcbant, abreptus, vehementer commovit regem. Juravit itaque amnem illum regiis equis meatum aufereutem, co ſe redactu­rum, ut tranſiri, calcarique etiam a foeminis poſ­ſet. Huc deinde omnem tranſtulit belli appara­tum, & tamdiu aſſedit operi, donec centum & octoginta cuniculis diviſum alveum in trecentos & ſexaginta rivos diſpergeret & fiecum relin­queret, in diverſum fluentibus aquis. Senec. de ita, lib. 3. cap. 21. pag. 448. Gyn­des very deepe, and of a boyſte­rous ſtreame, as when it drown­ed the white Horſe that drew the Charet of Cyrus, but being divided among ſo many Mini­ſters, or Presbyters, it is as the ſame River, when Cyrus enra­ged at the loſſe, and meaning to be revenged of it, cauſed it to be divided into three hundred and ſixtie channels.

And yet is not every Presbyter (though a Biſhop) as a Prelate in his own Pariſh, that is, endowed with ſole power of cenſures, for others are to be joyned in adminiſtration of Government with him, in many places many for one, and in no place under a double number.

As for the right of Presbytery, whether it be Di­vine, or humane, I conceive, if the Queſtion were rightly ſtated, and the officers their power, dutie, qua­lifications? and adminiſtrations clearly diſtinguiſhed, thoſe that are in extremes for their Tenets, whether holding all of it, or none of it to be of Divine right, would be eafily convinced of an errour, and a Tenure would be found out, and made good, wherein Chriſt might have his due to the full, without any diminuti­on of the Magiſtrates juſt Authoritie, or of any liber­tie which truly might be called Chriſtian.

For the latter concerning the unlawfulneſſe of Tythes, if his Tenet now be right, his taking of them before was wrong; and the ſame conſtitution of conſcience, which makes him now to renounce them, may make him at leaſt to doubt whether he be not bound to returne what he hath received of the Pariſhioners of Braſteed in that kinde into their hands againe, by vertue of that received Rule of**Non remitti­tur peccatum ni­ſi reſtituatur ab­latum. Auguſt. Epiſt. 54. ad Macedon. pag. 280. Auguſtine in his Epiſtle to Macedonius, The ſinne is not remitted, unleſſe the goods that are wrong fully taken be reſtored.

And if he appeare before you againe, you may doe well to put ſuch a caſe of conſcience to his conſide­ration. For my part I am ſorry to ſee him ſo unſetled in his judgement, ſo ſedulous in his endeavours (un­der pretence of Evangelicall calmeneſſe, and meek­neſſe, and moderation of ſpirit) to prepare a Patro­nage for all wild and wicked fancies, that every man may beleeve what he liſt, and live as he beleeveth, and ſo may doe what is right in his own eyes, that is, what­ſoever is wrong in the eyes of God and of all good men, as if there were no King in Iſrael, Iudges 17.6. that is, no Government (for then the Kingly power over that people was not ſet up.)

But the cure of this belongs to the care of your ſelves, and your Honourable Colleagues, for whom it is our parts, whom God hath placed under your power and protection, unceſſantly to ſupplicate to the throne of Grace, that as you have pulled down the remainders, and removed the rubbiſh of ruined Babel from among us, ſo you may in Gods good time (and the ſooner the better) ſet up in ſtead thereof ſuch a faire, and goodly frame of Church-government, from the foundation to the top-ſtone, as may be entertained with ſhouting, not of a party onely, as at the laying of the foundation of the Temple, Ezra 3.11, 12, 13. but of all ſorts both old and young; and to this publique devotion (wherein you have your ſociable ſhare, as you have a part of the common care and providence for the welfare of three Kingdomes) I ſhall adde my private ſupplications for your proſperitie in particu­lar, and to them my ſincere endeavours,

To be faithfully and affectionately yours in any acceptable ſervice, IOHN LEY.

The Contents.

  • Section 1. OF the Title Independent, in what ſence it is diſclaimed, in what acknowledged: and of ſubordination denied by Mr. S. and purity in the Church held neceſſary by him. p. 1.
  • Sect. 2. The Objection of unſeaſonableneſſe of Maſter Saltm. his Quere juſtified, and his groſſe miſtake, or wilfull falſification of my words detected p. 4.
  • Sect. 3. Rom. 14.23. Whatſoever is not of faith is ſin, no barre to the eſtabliſhment of the Preſbyteriall government; Maſter Saltm. his diſtinction of a State and publique conſcience and a perſonall con­ſcience. p. 5.
  • Sect. 4. Maſter Saltm. his unequall dealing in diſtributing his owne and his adverſaries worke: The Preſbytery not like Prelacie in unwarrantableneſſe by the word of God. Of Prudence how farre of lawfull uſe in religious matters. p. 8.
  • Sect. 5. Whether Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Preſby­teries be like the Independents gathering of Churches. p. 11.
  • Sect. 6. It is unreaſonable to require an undertaking that the beſt government in conſtitution ſhould be faultleſſe in execution; Tyranny more to be feared in Independencie then in Preſbyterie. p. 13.
  • Sect. 7. Of the power of the Preſbyterie for reformation of man­ners, compared with Prelacy; the evill effects of Independency; the difference betwixt a Diſcipline, and the Diſcipline; Mr. Saltm. his precipitancy in writing, and in divulging what he hath written of Popery in the Covenant, or under the Covenant. p. 15.
  • Sect. 8. Tythes not Jewiſh and Popiſh, as Mr. Saltm. pretendeth. pag. 19.
  • Sect. 9. Of Mr. Colemans obſervation of the Church of Scotland. pag. 21.
  • Sect. 10. A compariſon of young men and old for prudence and counſell. Of viſions and dreames; where Ioel 2.28. & Act. 2.17. are vindicated from Mr. Saltm. his miſtaking, and miſapplication of them. p. 23.
  • Sect. 11. Maſter Saltm. his inſufficient anſwer, and figurative trifling unworthy of an anſwer. p. 28.
  • Sect. 12. A compariſon of Preſbyterians and Independents in point of ſtrictneſſe, and looſeneſſe in admiſſion of members; Of the mixture in the Church of Corinth. p. 29.
  • Sect. 13. To whom Chriſt is an head, and how; of his rod of iron and his golden ſcepter; and of his being a Lord, and a ſervant; gentle, yet terrible. p. 21.
  • Sect. 14. The Preſbyteriall government not unſutable to the con­dition of Chriſt; the prevailing of Independents, and of the ſects that meete in Independencie much more terrible then the Preſbyteriall Go­vernment can be. p. 33.
  • Sect. 15. A pleaſant reproofe of a miſaepplication of Scripture is no offence againſt the Majeſty of the Word; how, and in what caſes a taunting ſpeech may be allowed. p. 39.
  • Sect. 16. Of the Preſbyteriall and Independent Government how affected; The ſlow proceeding of the Church Government made no argument for it, nor mentioned to the disparagement of the Par­liament; Mr. Saltm. brings the Parliaments Authoritie under po­pular libertie; Of wheat in the Independent Congregations. p. 42.
  • Sect. 17. The ſettling of Government falſly ſuggeſted to be here­tic all with an implicit reproach upon the Parliament. Of the truth of Sleydans ſtory of the Anabaptiſts in Germany. A raſh cenſure of Luther, and the Lutherans in Germany for oppoſing them. A caveat to England to take warning by Germany. The Miniſters practiſe ſlandered, and the Magiſtrate diſhonoured by Mr. Saltm. p. 47.
  • Sect. 18. The Toleration deſired by Mr. Saltm. neither ſafe nor ſound, oppoſite to the mind of Paul, 1 Cor. 1.10. Cal 5.10.12. Of the compariſon of the two ambitious Brethren to ten more humble and moderate; The Preſbytery not proved by Magiſtrates, though ap­proved by them; Of the pretended truth of Sectaries, and of the pre­ſcription of Biſhops and Independents. p. 51.
  • Sect. 19. Of the pretended modeſty and humility of the Indepen­dents, by way of compariſon with the Preſbyterians. p. 54.
  • Sect 20. Whether Chriſt, if he would have a nationall compre­henſive Church, was bound to have begun the practice of it over whole Kingdomes, as Mr. Saltm. ſaith; and whether importeth more pride, to deſire a ſubordination of Aſſemblies, Parochiall, Claſſicall, &c. or to be adverſe to it. p. 57.
  • Sect. 21. Maſter Saltm. his miſtake touching the building of the Temple. Of the difference of the patterne of the Temple, and the pat­terne of the Government of the Gospel. Maſter. Saltm. confuſedly jumbleth them together. p. 60.
  • Sect. 22 Of ſtaying for the Spirit to give light of inſtruction to the reformation of the Church. p. 63.
  • Sect. 23. Of expedition or delay in ſetting up of Government; Whether Moſes and Chriſt, the Jewiſh and Chriſtian State be ſo contrary, that there is no conformitie betweene them. p. 65.
  • Sect. 24 Truth not to be parted with for peace, the Magiſtrate diſhonoured, and the Preſbyterians ſlandered by Mr. Saltm. p 68.
  • Sect. 25 The Magiſtrates aſſiſtance to the Eccleſiaſticall Go­vernment no argument to prove it no Goſpel Government; the ſword of God and of Gideon, of Church Diſcipline and Civill ſeverity, how lawfull and uſefull; zeale againſt Toleration of evill commended con­nivence at it blameable. p. 71.
  • Sect. 26. Mr. Saltm. his dangerous ſuppoſition of equality of num­ber and power, with diverſitie of Religion; of incorporating of two powers; and what may be expected, ſhould the Sectaries prevail. p. 74.
  • Sect. 27. The Authority of the Parliament not pleaded by the Preſ­byterians as a ſupplement of Scriptures. as Mr. Saltm. ſuggeſteth, nor ſlighted by them as by Mr. Saltm. it is; of the pretended danger of the Magiſtrates engagement with the Miniſters; of the pretended tenderneſſe of conſciences in Sectaries. p. 77.
  • Sect. 28. What a Trumpeter Mr. Saltm. is; his reproach of the Parliament plaine enough, though rather implied then expreſſed; a challenge of him to prove his inſinuated ſuggeſtions of Treaſon, Bla­ſphemy, &c. in my Examination of his New Quere. p. 82.
  • Sect. 29. The charge of miſ application of Revel. 18.1. juſtiſied againſt Mr. Saltm his deniall. The expectation of new lights which ſome Sectaries teach, Papiſticall, fallacious, and dangerous. p. 85.

The Poſtſcript in anſwer to Mr. Saltm. his Poſtſcript, conſiſting of two teſtimonies of Claudius Salmaſius, the one againſt the forme of Baptiſme In the Name of the Father, Sonne, and Holy Ghoſt; the other for Independencie of Churches, p. 91.

Errata.

PAg. 41. lin. 4. from the end, after the word obſerved, read by many. p. 51. l. 8. for experience r. experiments, p. 84. l. 8. put out the Comma betwixt Philaſtrius & Brixienſis, p. 87. marg. l. 19. for Thelmes r. The lives and Text l. 8. from the end for prophecie r. prophecied.

The Contents of the Novello-mastix.

  • Section 1. THe Paſſager his ridiculous deſcant upon Mr. Leys Name, as if it had ſome alliance with French or Spaniſh lees, to which is oppoſed a Greeke Anagram, and Epigram on his Name, made by a learned Divine about an yeere and halfe ſince. p. 3.
  • Sect. 2. His confuſed jumbling of heterogeneall and incongruous metaphors, againſt reaſon and common ſence, with the number of his Queries. p. 5.
  • Sect. 3. An Anſwer to his firſt, ſecond, and third Queries, con­cerning Lieutenant Generall Cromwell, and Independency. p. 7.
  • Sect. 4. The fourth Quere, a ſenſleſſe complaint of Jedition, and a ſlanderous imputation of reproach of the Army, anſwered: The fifth Query of imputation of calumny and flattery of Lieutenant Generall Cromwell convicted of abſurdity, ſlander, and ſelfe-con­tradiction. p. 9.
  • Sect. 5. The ſixth Quere of the imputed breach of priviledge of Parliament, in ſaying that ſome of them favour the way of Indepen­dencie, and the like charge of the Aſſembly anſwered. p. 11.
  • Sect. 6. His ſeventh Querie, Whether Mr. Ley ought not to be queſtioned, for medling with this worthy and authenticke Author, becauſe the Clerke of the Honourable Houſe of Commons his De­putie ſigned his Paſſages for the Preſſe. p. 14.
  • Sect. 7 A cleare and full refutation of a ſlander of his written Copy, (which was not printed) wherein the Writer abſurdly ſugge­ſteth, that Mr. Leys Booke ſticketh upon the Printers hand to his loſſe, the ſame day when as he ſaith it was firſt publiſhed. p. 18.
  • Sect. 8. Some Anti-queries returned to this querulous Pam­phleter by another hand. p. 20.

To Mr. Iohn Saltmarſh, late Paſtor of Braſted in Kent, Iohn Ley wiſheth ſuch ſoundneſſe in judgement, and ſinceritie in affection, that he may truly, and cordially ſalute him as a Brother and a friend: And Sheweth in this Epiſtle his unfitneſſe to un­dertake the diſcuſſion of a Controverſie, or to be taken for an Antagoniſt in any Queſtion of the Doctrine of Religion, or of the Diſci­pline or Government of the Church.

SIR,

YOu have taken upon you in the Title page of your laſt booke to make a full Anſwer to mine, but the fulneſſe you ſpeake of is but the tympanie of a promiſe, for your performance is ſo empty of reall ſatisfa­ction to intelligent Readers, that ſome of them (who have impartially peruſed our papers on both ſides) have ſeriouſly adviſed me not to take ſuch notice of it, as to vouchſafe an Anſwer unto it; and the rather, becauſe you your ſelfe make ſuch diſtinction betwixt a refutation and an anſwer, that, though you ex­preſly profeſſe the one,aaI will not ſay I have made here a Refutation of yours, (that is, of your Booke) Smoke. p. 51. you will not ſay you have made good the other.

And for mine owne part, I will deale clearely with you, and let you know my mind, not onely for the preſent, but for the future; and it is this. For the preſent,

I doe not take you to be ſuch an adverſary as may diſcou­rage a man, though but of meane parts, (if not with all of too puſillanimous a ſpirit) to be your Antagoniſt; ſince you lay your ſelfe open to ſo much diſadvantage, as may rather in­vite him to begin with you, then diſhearten him to hold on when you provoke him to proceed.

But yet (beſides the diſſwaſions of my judicious friends, who thinke I may right my ſelfe as much by a ſilent neglect of you as by a loud conqueſt over you) I will give my reſolu­tion and my reaſons.

And for hereafter my reſolution is not to miſimploy precious time, (whereof my many ingagements in publique ſervice may make me more parſimonious then other men) in a reciprocation of a controverſie with you; and my rea­ſons are theſe.

Firſt, becauſe I ſee your genius is rather Rhetoricall, or Poëticall, then Polemicall; and will not keepe cloſe to a queſtion to bring it to an iſſue; and ſo you ſcatter your con­ceptions like drops of quickſilver out of the quill; or like beads broke looſe from the ſtring, ſo that it is matter of dif­ficulty, and ſometimes rather of impoſsibility, to gather them into an argument, ſince they have more in them of the complexion and trappings of Phraſiologie, then of the conſti­tution of ſound Divinity; which makes me (beſides that I had rather contend with an Antichriſtian Adverſary then with a Chriſtian Brother) more willing to take the confu­tation of the moſt learned part of Bellarmine for my taske, then to wait upon your wandring and new ſprung notions, though now and then you preſent your Reader with a Prim­roſe of pretty expreſsion to make him to miſtake the ſent of a weed for a flower, of an old error under the name and no­tion of a new truth.

Secondly,bbFor your Lo­gicall marſhal­ling, &c. Smoke p. 16. you profeſſe your ſelfe to have no good liking of Logick, formes of art, and methods of reaſon; andccPag. 60. renounce prudence and conſequences as the great engines of will-worſhip; and if you be of that mind you are fitter to write Poems, or Eſſayes, or Characters, then to maintaine a Diſpute in matter of Religion.

Thirdly, I conceive you are the leſſe fit for that purpoſe becauſe you ſeeme to me by that I have read in your writings to be a kind of Vbiquitary in beliefe, or (if I may not call it beliefe, being ſo uncertaine as you are) I muſt ſay you ramble about in your ſpeculation of opinions, but (as reſolved upon none of them) ſettle no where; ſo that your Adverſary knowes not where to find you. One while me thinkes you are a Presbyterian, becauſe you dedicate a Booke to thoſe that for the moſt part are ſuch, as to a moſt ſacred and reve­rend Aſſembly; another while youddSmoke in the Temple. p. 65. 68. reproach the Presby­terie, and gloriouſly ſet forth the Church way of Indepen­dents, andeeIn your E­piſtle to me, pab. the begin­ning. bring in your ſelfe as one of them: ſometimes I take you for an Anabaptiſt, at leaſt for an Antipaedo baptiſt, for in your exceptions againſt Presryterie (and I muſt take your Tenet to be rather againſt, then among the Presbyteriall poſitions) youffSmoke in the Temple. p. 9. ſay, That Baptiſme is not to be received by generation now, as Circumciſion was, but by regeneration, or viſible profeſſion as at firſt; nor are the carnall ſeed now any more the children of Abraham, but the faithfull, and that no Ordinance is now to be adminiſtred upon legall conſequences, but on Goſpel precepts: and of Maſter Tombes his booke (in anſwer to my objection concerning the delay of Baptiſme by Chriſts example) you ſay thus,ggIbid. in your anſwer to me. p. 37. I cannot diſpute that here now, Maſter Tombs will ſat is fie you at large in his learned Examen, where he hath made worke for an whole Aſſembly; wherein (to give you a word by the way) you are much miſtaken, both in the man, and in the matter; and you will ſee cauſe (within a while) to conceive otherwiſe of both, then now you doe; and that there lieth no obligation either of neceſsitie or of conveni­encie upon the Aſſembly which may engage them to the ex­amination of his Examen. Nor is Maſter T. with his moſt compleat armour ſo formidable a champion, as that there ſhould need an army of Divines to be muſtered againſt him, there be divers Davids who are ready for ſingle encounter with that braving Goliah, and ſome have given his cauſe ſuch a wound already, as (though he may play the Mounte­banke with it and skin it over) will never be cured at the bottome.

But this onely obiter, paſsing by him, and his booke, (as a parentheſis or parergon to that which is before me at the preſent) I muſt follow you a little further, and ſee whether (tracing the ſteps of your opinions by the print of your pen) I can overtake you, and at laſt find you in any place, or po­ſture of conſiſtence, or ſettlement.

In your Diſcovery of Independencie you deliver down-right Anabaptiſme in many particulars, (without any word of exception or caution to your Reader) as thathhSmoke p. 10, 11.

hhSmoke p. 10, 11.Thoſe who were baptized under Prelacy were baptized by an Antichriſtian power, and that they are no right baptized members of Churches.

That all conſequences drawne from circumciſion, are of no more force, then from the Cloud, and the Sea, and the Rock, and Noahs Arke, and other typi­call and figurative places in the Word, (yet by your leave from ſome of theſe there may be a good conſequence to ba­ptiſme of infants) nor can any legall, or probable Scri­ptures make any law or rule for any ſuch Goſpel ad­miniſtration, which is not directly in Scripture words to be found.

That childrens Baptiſme in the Church is a way never to have a Church of ſuch baptized beleevers, as in the Apoſtles times.

That Baptiſme, being a viſible ſigne, cannot ra­tionally be adminiſtred upon one that can neither ſee, nor diſcerne what is done, to whom the water can be no ſigne, but they are onely told of it when they come to age. Baptiſme is as a flaſh of lightning, (as was well obſerved by one) Circumciſion was as a fixed ſtarre, ſo much difference in theſe two rites.

Inſtitution of Baptiſme is to duty as well as grace, which children cannot performe, and ſo anſwer the ſigne.

Inſtitution of Baptiſme is doctrinal in the very act of it, as is acknowledged by all of the preſent Baptiſme, Matth. 28. now this implyes a capable and teachable ſubject. You have other poſitions ſymbolizing with the ſect of Anabaptiſts, but I note onely thoſe, which have neereſt congruitie to the title of that Sect.

While ſuch opinions as theſe, which you ſeeme rather to confirme then to confute, incline me to take you for an Ana­baptiſt, I am induced to doubt whether you be not ſomewhat elſe, ſomewhat worſe, by ſuch exceptions asiiSmoke in the Temple. p. 13, 14, 15. theſe.

Firſt, That Matth. 28.18. (it ſhould be verſ. 19.) and Mark 16, &c. are rather, and farre more probably to be expounded of the Spirits Baptiſme, then of Ba­ptiſme by water.

Secondly, That the Baptiſme of Ieſus Chriſt by wa­ter, was onely in the Name of Ieſus Chriſt.

Thirdly. That the forme by which they Baptize (viz. ••aptize thee in the Name of the Father, Son, and holy Ghoſt,) is a forme of mans deviſing, a tra­dition of man, a meere conſequence drawne from ſuppoſition, and probabilitie, and not a forme left by Chriſt.

Fourthly, That to preach in the Name of Ieſus Chriſt, or to do any thing in the name of Ieſus Chriſt, is not alwaies in that groſſe manner (as it is taken) viz. naming Ieſus Chriſt, or the naming of the Fa­ther, Sonne, and holy Ghoſt over them, but in the power, vertue, efficacie, Miniſterie of Ieſus Chriſt, or the Perſons of the Godhead, the Father, Sonne, and holy Ghoſt.

Fifthly,kkPag. 17. That none ought to give Baptiſme now, becauſe none can give the gift of the holy Ghoſt.

Sixthly,llPag. 18. That the fulneſſe of time is not yet come for ordinances, for as there were ſeverall ſeaſons for giving out of truth before, ſo now.

The next Title (under which you ſort the opinions of theſe times into ſeverall profeſsions) is of ſeeking and ſeekers, and there, (beſides other new Doctrines which you deliver) you ſay thatmmPag. 17. all ſhall in the laſt times be in a ſecret, inviſible inward and ſpirituall glory, no more in groſſe, carnall, viſible evidences, & materiall beames of gifts, & miracles, & this is to know Chriſt no more after the fleſh; which cannot be the meaning of the Apo­ſtles words, 2 Cor. 5.16. (for gifts and miracles continued after the time that he wrote thoſe words) but either that he did not conceive of Chriſt as of a temporall King, as the Diſciples ſometimes did, Luk. 24.21. Act. 1.6. and our Saviour himſelfe denyed, Joh. 18.36. or that his affections to Chriſt were not ſuch as theirs that had converſed with him in the fleſh, and had been taken onely, or chiefly with the comeltneſſe of his perſon, or had the ſenſible evidence of his miracles, or had a carnall conviction of his reſur­rection, as Thomas Didymus had, Joh. 20.27. but that he did ſpiritually participate and communicate with him, deri­ving life and vertue from him, as the members from the head, as where he ſaith, I live, yet not I, but Chriſt li­veth in me, and the life which I now live, I live by the faith of the Sonne of God, who loved me, and gave himſelfe for me, Gal. 2.20.

Another poſition (which you give out among the excep­tions to the way of Seekers, which to orthodox Divines is a meere paradox) is,nnPag. 18. that there is no ſuch power for ordinances as is pretended, but beleevers as diſciples may adminiſter, and ſo did the Apoſtles and beleevers formerly as they were diſciples.

I looked to have. found the Antinomian Tenets among the reſt which you report, but your ſilence concerning them in a place whereto their diſcovery was ſo ſeaſonable and per­tinent, is thought by ſome, who have read over your booke of Free Grace before I ſaw it, that you thought too honoura­bly of that Sect to bring it in there, where you intended to ſetooPag. 19. the ſtrength and weakneſſe of each opinion be­fore it ſelfe, that as on the one ſide it may glory, ſo on the other ſide it may feare and be humble; and that booke ſhews you plainly to be an Antinomian, though you pre­tend to maintaine your Tenets by the conſent and teſtimonie of many ſound Divines, pag. 204. &c. wherein they ſay you deale by them, as other Antinomians have formerly dealt with Luther, bringing their words againſt their minds as they did his; and I the rather beleeve it, becauſe making triall of the ſinceritie of your allegations, in that Booke by the quotation which came next to my hands, viz. that which you cite out of Mr. Samuel Boltons Booke of the bounds of Chriſtian Freedome; I find you alleadge hisppPag. 213. of your Booke of Free-grace, and the flowings of Chriſts blood. words with a guilefull reſervation, breaking them off with a ſubtle, &c. whereas if you had gone on to thoſe that follow next, you would have ſhewed the Reader a flat con­tradiction to the Cardinall Tenet of the Antinomians, (which gives them their name) in theſe words,qqPag. 74. of Mr. Boltons booke. acknow­ledge the morall Law as a rule of obedience, and Chriſtian walking, and there will be no falling out, whether you take it as promulgated by Moſes, or han­ded to you & renued by Chriſt; is not this ſuch a piece of ſophiſtry in proofe as arrQuirinus Cnoglerue in a little booke in 12. (but ſpi­der-like full of poyſon) called Symbol. in Sym­bol. Calvinian. malicious Papiſt uſed againſt Cal­vin, when he brought him in, ſaying, I would the names of the Trinitie, Perſon, homoouſios, &c. were buryed, but left out theſe words; So that the truth of thoſe Ar­ticles of the Chriſtian Creed were received and im­braced by all; we ſay the Papiſt in this corrupt and maim­ed allegation followed the devill in his quotation of the 91 Pſalme againſt our Saviour, Matth. 4.6. where he bringeth in a Text of divine Providence, He ſhall give his Angels charge over thee, and in their hands they ſhall beare thee up, left at any time thou daſh thy foot againſt a ſtone, verſ. 11, 12. but leaveth out the limitation, they ſhall keepe thee in all thy wayes.

In this example I have done you a favour to compare you to a Papiſt, and the Papiſt iuſtice in matching him with the devill, whoſe proper ſinne (as a devill) isſſ2 Tim. 2. ſlander.

And I would take you for an Antinomian (as many doe) but that in the ſame booke whence they have learned to ſuſ­pect you for one of that Sect, I finde ſomewhat which ſhews you are not ſetled in their way, and it is your equall and in­different dealing in part betwixt the Antinomians and their oppoſites in theſe words;ttOccaſionall word prefixed before the flowings of Chriſts blood. pag. 1, 2. Some hearing the Do­ctrine of Free-grace, thinke preſently there will fol­low nothing but looſeneſſe, and libertiniſme, and o­thers hearing of holineſſe of duties and obedience, thinke there will follow nothing but legalneſſe, bon­dage, and ſelfe-righteouſneſſe; upon theſe jealou­ſies one ſuſpecting the others doctrine, bends a­gainſt another in expreſſions ſomething too uncome­ly for both; and there are ſome unwarrantable noti­ons to be found on all ſides: and yet after a little impar­tiall equipoyſe betwixt both parties, and their opinions, you ſway all that followeth ſo for Free-grace, as to caſt diſgrace upon the Law; for you ſay,uuIbid. pag. 56. If Chriſt had been more in the Divinitie of theſe times, in their preachings for Reformation, and Moſes leſſe, we had had not onely more of his grace, but more of his glory then we ſee.

Whereas indeed by filling out of this new wine too freely, (to uſe yourxxIbid. pag. 9. phraſe) many have play'd the looſe and wicked wantons, and have ſinned the more that grace might abound, Rom. 6.1. becauſe they thought themſelves not bound to the Law as to a rule of life.

All this while having endeavoured to diſcover of what Religion you are, I cannot yet finde that you have made choice of any.

You would have me take it for a part of your praiſe that youyySmoke in the Temple p. 11. of your anſwer to me as it is in the ſecond edi­tion. were not haſty to beleeve; but is there not a faulty ſlowneſſe of faith, which our Saviour reproveth in ſome, calling themyySmoke in the Temple p. 11. of your anſwer to me as it is in the ſecond edi­tion. fooles for not being forward enough to beleeve, Luk. 24.25. but you take it perhaps for a point of prudence, to keepe your ſelfe unengaged untill you ſee what varietie thezzSmoke pag. 7. and of your Anſwer to me, pag. 47. 63. toleration you ſtand for (if it be ob­tained, as I hope it never will be) will bring forth; and you tell us that yetaaSmoke, pag. 3. §. 11. we are but in our comings out of Baby­lon, and the fall of Babylon not yet, the ſmoke yet in the Temple, the Angels but yet pouring out their vi­als, the Angels that enlighten the earth not yet flying through the heavens: and yet towards the later end of yourbbPag. 66. booke you ſay, Now the ſpirituall diſpenſation being come, even the Goſpel of Jeſus Chriſt, there is a ful­neſſe of ſpirit let out upon the Saints and people of God, which gathers them up more cloſely, ſpiritually, and cordially then the power of any former diſpenſa­tions could doe.

In the proſecution of this third reaſon of my refuſall to take you for an Antagoniſt hereafter, if I have been too co­pious, it is becauſe you have been too various and diffuſive in your fancies for matters of religion, ſo that I ſincerely pro­feſſe I know not where to finde any certaine fixing of your faith, nor in what predicament of profeſsion to place you, whether directly or reductively. And I thinke it my part rather to pray for you that God would eſtabliſh you in his truth, then to trace you through the multiplicitie of opinions diſperſed in your papers, eſpecially when they are not more untrue in themſelves, then uncertaine to your Reader whe­ther they be yours or no.

Fourthly, If I could tell of what minde you are now, I ſhould have little incouragement to ſet upon the confutation of your preſent errours; becauſe you are a man ſo unſtable, that I may probably ſuſpect a prevention of my paines, or diſappointment of my purpoſe, viz. your c•nviction there­in, by your voluntary departure from your precedent opini­ons, (before it could reach you) upon a pretence of new light, and further enlargement of Goſpel-grace. That this is no ſlander of you, nor ſiniſter ſurmiſe, will appeare by your Smoke in the Temple, for having alleadged ſome paſſa­ges of your Booke of Policie againſt your opinion profeſſed in your New Quere, you anſwer me thus;ddSmoke in the Temple, p. 13. For ſome things in my Booke of Policie I looke on them as a part of the darkneſſe I was in, and I can freely joyne with any in cenſuring my unregenerate part in me, as I eſteeme much of my carnall reaſon to be.

And upon another quotation of mine out of the ſame Booke, you reply againe,eeIbid. pag. 45. I told you before I dare not allow my ſelfe the priviledge of an Aphoriſme of light then, when it was rather night then day with me; and a third time urging you with your own words out of the ſame booke, you anſwer me againe;ffIbid. pag. 59. I told you my Politicks were written by my dimmer light; and yet let me tell you Sir (and I beleeve all judicious Readers of your Dictates will be of my minde) that booke was the beſt that ever you wrote, and therefore the beſt becauſe freeſt from errour, and freeſt from errour, becauſe it ſetteth down the practice of Policie in a Chriſtian life, taught from the Scriptures, as you expreſſe it in your Title Page, and conſiſteth of apho­riſmes, grounded upon a Text of Gods word, for the moſt part pertinently and truly applyed.

A fifth Reaſon why I ſhall but this once, not hereafter take you to taske in a word warre, is this; I perceive you glory in the quicke diſpatch of your worke, that is, to mine underſtanding, in beſtowing little ſtudy and taking little paines for what you publiſh, or, (as the Proverbe hath it) in making more haſte then good ſpeed. For in your Letter to me you ſay thus;ggSmoke, p. 2. You ſee my labours, deducting the time of their printing, are of about two weekes growth, younger by ſome ſixe weekes if I miſtake not then yours; where you meane not I ſuppoſe that I was ſixe weekes in anſwering a ſheet of paper of yours, and that you anſwered fifteene ſheets of mine in two weekes; for you know not what private time I tooke for it out of publique employment; but comparing the publication of my booke from the Preſſe about the tenth of December, and of yours about the ſixteenth of Ianuary following, the computation you make in that reſpect is not much miſtaken: But why Sir ſhould you confine your ſelfe to two weekes time, when it was in your power to have allowed your ſelfe more? and it ſhould have been a part of your prudence not to have tuckt your ſelfe up to ſo little, eſpecially if you conceive, (as you ſay in your Letter to me,) I have much advantage of learning and experience; Sure if you thought ſo indeed, you would be more wiſe then to give me ſo much advantage by your over-haſty, and unconcocted effuſions, as you have done; Nor is this the firſt time of your precipitation and boaſting in this kinde, for in the yeere 1643. you ſet forth an Exa­mination of Mr. Fullers Faſt Sermon, (preached at the Savoy, Iuly 26. and afterward printed), and you dedicated your Booke to thoſe Divines (under the Title of The moſt Sacred and Reverend Aſſembly for Reformation of the Church convened by Parliament) whom now you mention with a meioſis of eſtimation, as if all of them together were but a companie of ſuch deſpicable dwarfes, that Mr. T. the confident Antipaedobaptiſt might defie them, as Goliah did all the armie of Iſrael; and in the firſt lines of your Epiſtle Dedicatorie to them, you ſay you have but the thoughts of an afternoone to ſpread before them, and that you examined in the ſame pace you read. Now truly Sir, if this be true, I cannot commend your diſ­cretion in ſuch expedition; I know you will not plead for your warrant the words of our Saviour to Judas, Joh. 13.27.

You pretend as the motive to ſuch haſty motion, that your intent was, if it were poſſible, truth might overtake an errour before it went too farre, and you hope for par­don if your zeale to the truth made you ſee anothers faults ſooner then your owne; but you ſhould have con­ſidered, that your adverſary was a man of eminent parts, much more adviſed in what he publiſhed in the Pulpit, and by the Preſſe, then your ſelfe; and that following him in ſuch poſt-haſt, before you had well weighed what you wrote againſt him, it was not like to fall out, that (at long running) truth ſhould overtake errour, but rather that many errours on your part ſhould overtake ſome errours on his; and that the zeale which made you ſee anothers faults ſooner then your own was too like that of the hypocrite, Mat. 7. verſ. 3, 4, 5. and not to be thought more capable of pardon then of reproofe; for the truth had no ſtead of, nor was it like to have any aid by ſuch an extemporary undertaking of a cauſe of ſo great moment as the reformation of the Church.

And if your Adverſary had beene ſo contemptible (as he was not) that nothing could be too ſlight for him which came from you, the Aſſembly of Divines, to whom you de­dicated your printed paper, ſhould have beene more vene­rable with you, then that you durſt offer ſuch ſudden con­ceptions to their peruſall and acceptance by way of dedica­tion, unleſſe you conceived that their aſpect and protection could help and heale what was weake and ſicke in your over­haſty birth; and I confeſſe you ſeeme (but whether I ſhould take it for Poetry or flattery, I cannot tell) to attribute ſo much unto them, in your Epiſtle; where you ſay, That ayring your aſſertions under their Patronages will heale them; for ſo they brought forth the ſick into the ſtreets, that at leaſt the ſhadow of Peter might touch ſome of them. But this perhaps you will ſay was written by your dimmer light, when it was rather night then day with you, (as before I have noted) and I beleeve it was, for your whether imaginarie or adulatorie elluſion is a ſtraine of elevation of them, both above their merit, and acknowledgement.

But that which at the preſent I muſt preſſe a little fur­ther upon you, is the coercion of your Pen, that you put it not upon ſuch ſpeed as if it were yet as a quill in the wing. I ſuppoſe being a Poet you have read, and not forgot that of Horace concerning Luci­lius,aa— In h•ra ſ•pe due••tor Ʋt magnum verſut dictabat ſtans pede in une. Cum flueret lutulent••〈◊〉qu•d collere velles. Her. Serm. l. 1. p. 212, powring out two hundred verſes in an houre and ſtanding on one foot; in which though ſomewhat were worth no­ting, yet his ſtreame runne muddily. And he commends thoſe verſes moſt which have beene made withbb— in verſu facieudo Saepe caput ſcaberet, vivos & roderet ungues. Hor. Ibid. p. 237. often ſcratching of the head and biting of the nayles to the quick; and diſcommends ſuch as have not ta­ken upcc— carmen reprehendite quod non Multa dies, & multa litura cocrcuit, atque Perfectum decies non caſtigavit ad unguem. Hor. de Arte Poet. p. 369. many dayes, nor come under many blots, even to a ten­fold correction; this in reſpect of number, and for time he would havedd— ſi quid tamen olim Scripſeris, in Metii deſcendat judicis aures, Et patris, & noſtras, nonumque prematur in annum. Hor. Ibid. p. 373. 374. many dictates kept under the file even to the ninth year, which Quin­tilian the famous Rhetorician (whomeeHic ſere omnes Latinos ſcriptores repreheudit, uni Quintiliano aſſurrexit. Bucolzer Index Chronol. ad an. 1465. p. 420. Laurentius Valla who carped at almoſt all Latine Writers, did ſingularly reverence) did ſo much approve of, that he kept his books in his private ſtudy long; that (as he gives the reaſon for it)**Ʋſus Horatii conſilio qui in Arte Poetica ſua­det ne praecipitetur editio nonumqueprematur in annum, dabo iis otium ut refrigerato inventionis amore diligentius repetitos tanquam Lector per­penderem. Sic Quintil. in Epiſt. Tryphoni Bibli­opola. praefix, Inſtit. Orat. the affection which naturally men beare to their owne invention may be cooled, and that a man may come to review of his owne writings with the indiffe­rencie of an ordinary Reader.

It may be for the diſpatch you make, and make your boaſt of, you expect the praiſe of pregnancie of wit, asffThebis hebetes & brutos naſci relatum eſt, A­thenis ſcribendi dicendique acutiſſimos, ubi penes colitam pueri menſe citius eloquuntur praecoce lin­gua. Tertul. deanima. Tom. 2. Edit. Rhenan. p. 331. Tertullian commends ſome Athenian children for their forwardneſſe to ſpeake at a moneth old, and asggSeptennes pueri concionantur in ordine Fran­ciſci. Phil. Boſq. quarta Naufrag. Tabula. in ord. Franciſci in Dominic. pt. Pentecoſt. p. 241. Philip Boſquier doth his Franciſcan Brenthren of whom he ſaith, That boyes at ſeven yeeres of age preach in the Order of Francis, or (which is commendation enough for any mans beliefe) ashhSixt. Senenſ. Biblioth. Sanct. l. 4. p. 220. col. 2. Sixtus Senenſis reporteth to the praiſe of Co•­nelius Muſſe, that at twelve yeeres old he was an eloquent Preacher. And for thoſe rude times that might deſerve praiſe which in this knowing and learned Age may need pardon, eſpecially if without need any man will obtrude that upon a rationall Reader which hath more affinitie with the nimbleneſſe of conceit, then with the ſoliditie of judgement; and how ſoever ſudden ſparkes and flaſhes of fancie may take with the vulgar, they will not hold reputation with the wiſe, but rather ſtirre up indignation and diſdaine. And if I ſhould ſay that your Anſwer to me hath had no better ac­ceptance with ſome very judicious and godly Divines, I am able to prove it, how fondly ſoever your ſelfe, or your ſedu­ced followers conceive of your papers. I deny not but ſome­times a man may be unexpectedly put upon it, to doe that extempore, which he would not willingly undertake but upon deliberation; and I have beene neceſsitated on the ſud­den to preach even in the Vniverſitie, and in other places ſome of my Dictates have beene divulged with more di­ſpatch then I wiſhed; yet I was alwaies of the mind of Da­vid (and know no cauſe to be a changeling in it) who would not offer unto God of that which coſt him nought, 2 Sam. 24. nor would I ſo farre undervalue the judgement of men, eſpecially in this learned age, as to offer any thing to their peruſall, which had not come under a threefold cen­ſure on this ſide the Printing Houſe; the firſt of mine owne ſerious and rigorous reviſall; the ſecond of ſome middle ca­pacitie, that I may know whether it be obſcure or no to an or­dinary Reader; the third of ſome judicious Critick, that I might not juſtly come under the rod of an accurate Reader.

And in the choice of Bookes I would be glad to know not onely the Authour, who makes them, but what time and ſtu­die hath beene imployed upon them; and if they have taken up tenne years time, as did Perer. hisiiHis firſt Tome was ſet forth an. 1589. and his laſt an. 1598. Comment. upon Ge­neſis: orkkAdric. Delph. Praſat. in The­atr. Terrae•Sanct. p. 3. Thirty yeers, as Theatrum Terrae Sanctae made by Adrichomius Delphus as he profeſſeth in the Preface of his Booke: orllEmau. Sa. Aphoriſm. prae­fat. Lectori. p. 2. fortie yeers or thereabouts, which Eman. Sa. ſpent upon his Aphoriſmes, I like them ſo much the better (caeteris paribus) as they were done with more ad­vice, ſtudie, and premeditation.

I will conclude this reaſon with a domeſticall ſtory which may be pertinnently applied to our caſe; A noble man had a controverſie in law with a Brewer, who had a garden and dwelling houſe bordering neere upon his, the Brewer gave a charge to his ſervant to put in ſo many hogſheads of wa­ter more into all his brewings then hee had wont to dee, telling him that ſuch a ſupply would beare the charge of his ſuite with his Adverſary; which being overheard by the Nobleman, he ſent preſently to the Brewer, reſolving he would not goe any longer to law with him, who upon ſuch eaſie and cheape termes could manage his part of the ſuit; I will make bold to apply it (upon confidence that you will doe•s you ſay,**Smoke in the Temple in anſwer to me. p. 13. for interpreting any thing from me on the better ſide of it,) while you ſuffer your fancie to flye abroad ſo faſt, and have ſuch a fluid inkpot as ready at hand as the Thames to the Brewer, in ſuch a cauſe to write in a fortnight more then an abler man then your ſelfe would undertake to doe in a moneth, I ſhall not thinke it fit to draw out this diſſention betwixt us to any further length, nor have I leiſure, or if I had, for the for•••reaſ••s I ſhould have no liſt to wiredraw a debate or Controver­ſie of this kind with you, or any one elſe who makes no more of the matter then you doe.

Sixthly, It is needleſſe for me to be engaged any further in this quarrell; ſince,

Firſt, I am aſſured by very convincing evidence that your interpoſition for delay in ſetting up the Church Government (which at firſt I feared would prove a Remora unto it) is not like to give any impediment to the expedition deſired.

Secondly, Others, who thinke I might be better im­ployed in more publique ſervice, me willign to take me off this controverſie, and to undertake you themſelves, as occaſion ſhall require.

Now Sr. having done with you as an Adverſarie, I would cloſe with you upon kind and Chriſtian termes, if I knew under what notion to take my leave of you, with your good liking; and I am doubtfull what rela­tion to make uſe of, ſince you ſay,aaIn your De­ſigne of Recon­cil. p. 5. nu. 17. We may be in one Chriſt though diverſe, and we may bee friends though not Brethren,. If we be in one Chriſt I ſhould rather ſay we are Brethren, though not friends; but if we be friends and in Chriſt, we muſt needs be Brethren, ſonnes of the ſame Father, and heires of the ſame hope, and inheritance in heaven; although not knowing, or ſuſpecting each others intereſt, wee may bee more un­friendly among our ſelves then we ſhould be: And though you be leſſe a Brother then you have been, for (as I heare) you acknowleldged before the Honourable Com­mittee of Examinations that you have renounced your Ordination, the ground of your Miniſteriall Brother­hood in the Church of England, yet ſince you are pleaſed to call me bothbbSo in the in­ſcription of your Letter. Friend andccIn your Smoke p. 26. Brother; I ſhall (with much hearty ſorrow to ſee your good parts ſo ill imploy­ed, as they are, on the wrong ſide, and my fervent prayers to the Father of lights to give you light for ſmoke, to guide you into the way of Truth and Peace, and to ſettle you in it) ſincerely ſubſcribe my ſelfe

Yours in the affections and offices of a friend and Brother JOHN LEY.
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LIGHT FOR SMOKE: OR, A Cleare and diſtinct Reply to a darke and confuſed Anſwer of Mr. Iohn Saltmarſh, &c.

SECT. I. Of the Title Independent, in what ſence it is diſclaimed, in what acknoweldged; and of ſubordination idenied by Mr. S. and pu­ritie in the Church held neceſſary by him.

Smoke.Pag.aaIn the former edition the an­ſwer to me be­ginneth a new order of figures, ſo this quotation is p. 2. but in the ſecond edition it is p. 12. 12.

FOr the notion of Independencie you ſpeake of, I dare not owne it, becauſe I account my ſelfe both under a ſpirituall and civill ſupremacie, under Jeſus Chriſt and the Magiſtrate ſeverally, and exempt from neither.

Light.Your pretended dependencie on the Magiſtracie will not ex­empt you from the name or notion of Independencie, (a title di­verſly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party, while ſome own and honour it, ſome diſclaime and abhor it,bbMien Ex­am. of the New Quere. p. 2. as I have former­ly ſhewed) for you give the Magiſtrate ſo little power in matter of Religion, thatccSmoke. p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of con­ſcience2 ſcience therein; cnceiving that, asddM. SAltm. Epiſtle to the Beleevers of ſeverall opini­ons. p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London, ſome travelling from the North, ſome from the South, ſome from the Eaſt, and ſome from the Weſt, yet all come thither, though there may be ſome miſtaking of the way in each, ſo is the gathering of the Saints into heaven. Which if you meane of ſo many ſeveral Sects of beleevers as in this Booke, and ſome other of your Pamphlets you plead for, you meane it of ſome who are as farre out of the way to heaven, as if a man at Lichfield ſhould travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London, or as if at Barwicke he ſhould travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough.

Smoke. Pag. 12.We dare not be Claſſicall, Provinciall, Nationall, theſe are no formes of wholeſome words, to which we are commended, nor know we any ſuch power, but that of Brethren, Miniſterie, and Fellowſhip; and if you call the Churches of Chriſt Independent for this, we muſt ſuffer till the Lord bring forth our righteouſneſſe as the noone-day.

Light.The graduall ſubordination of Aſſemblies againſt the Indepen­dencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of Mr. Samuel Rutherford, ſo that it is need­leſſe to take up their defence in this place, at leaſt with you, who (as I have obſerved your genius) are not fit to be taken for an An­tagoniſt in any Polemicall point.

And for that you ſay, they are no formes of wholeſome words, it is no more then the Arians ſaid of the words Trinitas, Eſſentia, Hemoeuſios, & Perſona, becauſe they found them not in the Scri­pture; And if you were not ſwayed by a ſpirit of Libertiniſme, you would thinke them very wholſome words, as ſignifying ſo­veraigne remedies againſt the ruptures of Schiſme, and uleers or gangrenes of Hereſie.

Smoke. Pag. 12.Nor know we any ſuch power, but that of Brethren, Miniſters and Fellowſhip.

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Light.Doe you not know Sr. that that which is Miniſterie and ſervice in reſpect of God, may be rulel and authoritie in reſpect of men? are there not Officers in the Church called Elders? and are not thoſe Elders Rulers? and thoſe Elders and Rulers Fathers? and is there not a ſpirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Go­ſpel? 1 Cor. 4.15. and muſt not theſe by the fifth Commande­ment be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood, and Fellowſhip? and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers? and may not the father, as the child gives him cauſe, uſe both the rod and the ſpirit of meek­neſſe? if not, ſurely the Apoſtle would not have put this Queſtion to the Corinthians, Shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the ſpirit of meekneſſe? verſ. 21. of the ſame Chapter.

Smoke. Pag. 12.And if you call the Churches of Chriſt Independent for this, wee muſt ſuffer untill the Lord bring forth our righteouſneſſe as the noon-day.

Light.If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Chriſt, I would call them Dependent, for the moſt of them are ſubordinate to Claſſicall, Provinciall and Nationall Aſſemblies; not Indepen­dent, as the feweſt are, and of thoſe few ſome of them are ſo un­ſound in doctrine that they deſerve not the title of Churches to be put upon them; and if you profeſſe your ſelfe Independent in that ſence you have acknowledged, and for that be ſo called, I pray you Sr. what ſuffering doe you complaine of? is it any ſuffer­ing to you to be called by your Name Mr. Saltmarſh, which you owne? and foro the bringing forth of your righteouſneſſe as the noone day; I muſt tell you Sr. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes diſcovery, that all may ſee, (but thoſe whoſe eyes are darkened with your Smoke) that the unrighteouſneſſe of thoſe Sectaries, whom you embrace as Independent Brethren, in broken forth as the ſmoke of the bottomleſſe pit, Revel. 9.2. with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion.

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SECT. II. The Objection of unſeaſonableneſſe of Mr. Saltm. his Quare juſtified, and his groſſe miſtake or wilfull fal­ſification of my words detected.

Smoke. Pag. 14.VVHat better ſeaſon could I come in then ſuch a one wherein things were but moving and ripening towards eſtabliſh­ment? where no thing is ſetled, there nothing can be diſturbed — And whereas you ſay the Parliaments determinations were finall, that holds better for me who might have ſpoken to much leſſe purpoſe had I ſtaid till and had beene done, and the determinations ended and become finall; ſure it was a time then to ſpeake or never; and by your owne account too, for you are pleaſed to reckon up the proceedings of the State in the buſineſſe of Religion, which are ſuch as had I ſtaid I had had a worſe ſeaſon.

Light.In the Title page of my Examination I ſaid your Quaere was unſeaſoanble, and gave reaſons thereof, pag. 4, 5. and among o­thers I reckoned up foure particulars of the ſubordination, and ex­erciſe of the Presbyteriall Diſcipline, ſet out already by Authority of Parliament, in reſpect whereof your Quere and determination upon it came too late; and it might have beene more ſeaſonable either while the matters were in debate of the Aſſembly of Di­vines, or when firſt the votes of the Aſſembly were preſented to the Parliament; but when both Parliament and Aſſembly, after much debate, were ſo farre, and ſo publiquely engaged for the Presbyteriall Government, it was too late for ſuch a novice as you by ſo poore and trifling a paper as you put forth to offer to op­poſe it; which was not like (being of ſo little worth) to be of any great weight with the Parliament, (though ſome Indepen­dents who will have all their Geeſe to be Swans, ſaid of it, it was a very rationall peece, whoſe fond opinion of it advanced it to the reputation to be thought worthy of a refutation) all the miſchiefe it was like to doe (for no good could reaſonably be looked for5 from it) was to interpoſe betwixt the command of the Magi­ſtrate, and the obedience of the people, and to prepare ſuch as are ſilly and perverſe to a prejudice, and to make them refractory againſt reformation intended; and this is one part of the Indepen­dents good ſervice they doe to the civill Authority.

Smoke. Pag. 15.For bayting my Quere with truth and peace, you allude to Chriſts allegory that we are fiſhers of men, and if I have no worſe things to bayte with then theſe two, truth and peace, none need I hope to be afraid of the hooke.

Light.In the ſecond Section of my Booke having ſet downe the Title of your looſe ſheete, A new Quere, &c. I ſay thus; He knew well enough the humour of liſtening after newes prevaileth with our people of all ſorts, and therefore being to fiſh in troubled waters he putteth upon his hooke that baite at which it was like many would be nibling. Where it is plaine as may be, my meaning was that your bait was Novelty, not Truth and Peace, where with I begin a new ſentence, and ſpeake diſtinctly of them afterwards, and there­fore I may well come upon you with your owne Quere, (miſap­plied to me) Why deale you not more candidly?Smoke. p. 16. why are you not more faithfull in your interpretation to the Originall?

SECT. III. Rom. 14.23. Whatſoever is not of faith is ſinne, no barre to the eſtabliſhment of the Proſbyteriall Government; Mr. Saltm. his diſtinction of a State and publique conſcience and a perſonall conſcience.

Smoke. Pag. 17.SInce you will helpe me to prove you are welcome, you have fur­niſhed me with one Argument more, you are a faire enemie to l•nd out your owne weapon; and n•w you have made your Argu­ment6 halfe for me I ſhall make the other halfe my ſelfe. What the Impoſers of Government cannot doe in faith they ſinne, this is your halfe Argument, but you take it for granted our Impoſers of Government are not ſuch, but ſuch as are fully perſwaded, and can ſet up the Government in faith.

Light.ffPag. 9. of mine Exam. I ſhewed you ſhould frame your Argument, according to the ſcope of your Quere, rather againſt the eſtabliſhment of a government by the Magiſtrate, then againſt ſubmiſſion to a go­vernment by the people; and you ſeeme to take this as a courteſie from me, but you ill deſerve it, for you repeat it ſo imperfectly as to obſcure the light of it, and to impaire the ſtrength of it; for you bring it in thus: What the Impoſers of Government cannot doe of faith they ſinne; whereas in my Booke, out of which you ſhould fairely, nd faithfully have tranſcribed, the argument hath it more dearcly and fully in theſe words: Thoſe that ſet up a Government whereof they are not fully perſwaded in their mind, and which they cannot do in faith, do ſinne. To this major you adde a minor and con­cluſion, as followeth.

Smoke. Pag. 18.But the Parliament cannot be fully perſwaded of this govern­ment, therefore if they ſet it up they ſinne; and they cannot be fully perſwaded, becauſe the State or publique conſcience cannot conſent at this time; and the State conſcience cannot conſent, becauſe it hath no Scripture to ſecure it; for how can the Parliament be ſaid to be fully perſwaded, &c. unleſſe they could fully ſigne it with a jus di­vinum, or divine right? nothing but Scripture and the Word can properly fully perſwade.

Light.Thoſe that ſet up a Government, &c. This you call my Argu­ment, but it is yours; for I deny your minor propoſition, and con­ſequently your concluſion, wherein you impute ſinne unto the Parliament, if they ſet up Presbyteriall Government. And you tell us of a State or publique conſcience, and of that you ſay in the laſt page of your book, it is with a publique or State conſcience as7 it is with a perſonall and particular conſcience, what is done muſt be done in faith, or elſe there is weakneſſe, doubting, and ſinne; now where there is not a full conſent, and perſwaſion from the Word of faith, there cannot be faith properly — if the laws of truth were founded, as the laws of civill States, in a meere legiſlative power, then Popery hath had as good aſſurance as any, they have had moſt voices, moſt councols. I wonder Sr. how you that ſo contract the Church into a particular Congregation, and who will not endure to heare of a Church of ſuch a latitude, as to be called Nationall, can allow of ſuch a large conſcience as a State and publique conſcience: and you reduce it to the ſame rule that you doe a perſonall, and a par­ticular conſcience, and of both you ſay, they cannot have a full conſent and perſwaſion but from the word of faith; and doe you meane thereby, that whatſoever the State alloweth muſt have a particular warrant from the word of God? and that the civill Sanction muſt be ſet on nothing but that which hath the ſtampe of a Jus Divinum upon it? if ſo, you ſo much pinion the civill power, as to make it of little uſe for Government, either of Church or State.

Although againe you be as much too looſe (as here you are too nice) in that to the Magiſtrate you give libertie to different Reli­gions, all pretending to the word of God, though in many points repugnant one to another.

For that of the Apoſtle, whatſoever is not of faith is ſinne, Rom. 14.23. it imports (as ſome expound it) that all the workes of In­fidels are ſinnes, that it belongeth alſo to beleevers, and boundeth them ſo in their Chriſtian practice, that they muſt doe nothing againſt conſcience, nothing with a doubting conſcience, nothing at all which hath not warrant from the Word either in generall principles, or particular concluſions; and it ſerves likewiſe to ſhut out meere humane inventions from the worſhip of God, and the luxuriant fruitfulneſſe of humane fancie, againſt which the An­cient and OrthodoxeaaTert. deprae­ſcript. adverſ. haeret. Hilar. in Pſal. 132. Hieron. contra Helvid. Aug. contra. Petil. l. 3. c. 6. Doctors have given many cautions, which Proteſtant Writers pertinently bring in againſt Popiſh Traditions, and additions thereto. But makes nothing either againſt the States eſtabliſhing of the Presbyteriall Government, nor againſt the peoples yeelding to it for want of faith, ſince for a great part8 of it, it is grounded on the Word of God, and is in no part of it repugnant to it.

SECT. IIII. Mr. Saltm. his unequall dealing in diſtributing his owne and his adverſaries worke: The Preſbyterie not like Prelacie in un­warrantableneſſe by the word of God. Of Prudence how for of lawfull uſe in Religious matters.

Smoke. Pag. 20.NOw you are to prove more then perhaps you thought on, that is, to cleare a Church Covenant, which many of your way are a­gainſt, for though you condemne it in ſome Churches, yet a Na­tionall Church-Covenant you plead for.

Light.By what law would you put me to cleare a Church-covenant? it is no part of my worke in the taske I undertooke, and if you may decline diſcuſſing the impoſition of Proteſtations (as you do in the next precedent paragraph) though mentioned by me as a proofe againſt you, and as you doe the objection made from the deferring of our Saviours Baptiſme till he was about thirtie yeers of age,hhSmoke. p. 37. as you doe likewiſe in the further proſecution of your Reply, why ſhould you take upon you to appoint me an imperti­nent worke, and which is more, that which is repugnant to my judgement? for you ſay it is to cleare a Church-covenant, which is rather your office then mine, who thinke it fitter to be accuſed then cleared.

Smoke. Pag. 20, 21.You grant that the Government is but in ſome parts warrantable by the word of God, ſo was Epiſcopacy and Prelacy in ſome parts of it, there is not any falſe worſhip or way but it hath ſome parts of truth in it, the great image had a head of gold, &c. truth muſt be all one and the ſame, and homogencall, not in parts.

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Light.You allow your ſelfe too much libertie in changing my words, which have their weight and pertinency, from whence if you va­ry, you marre the matter; I ſaid not the Government is but in ſome parts warrantable by the word of God, but in the chiefe parts, which you will not ſay of Prelacy, for that conſiſteth in be­ing chiefe, in aſſuming a Lordly preeminence over their brethren of the Miniſtery; but the chiefe parts of the Presbyteriall Go­vernment have their warrant in the word, and why not the reſt? Beſides, it is not enough to have ſome parts, or the chiefe parts of government warrantable by the word of God, but it muſt be in no part contrary to the word of God; and ſo we may ſay of Preſ­bytery, not ſo of Prelacie. You ſay truth muſt be all one and the ſame, homogencall in all parts, that is, if you ſpeake to the point, all truth muſt be onely Scripture truth; but hath not the light of nature taught the heathens many truths who never ſaw the Scrip­ture? and is any government reduced to practice without ſome prudentiall ſupplyes, in divers particulars wherein the Scripture is ſilent? as for the Elders in a Congregation, how many they ſhould be, whether perpetuall or annuall, and what their qualifications ſhould be for the meaſure of knowledge, and other abilities, and whether they ſhould be maintained at the charge of the Church, and there are many Queries concerning the particulars of the Dea­cons office, which cannot be reſolved by any direction of the written word.

Smoke. Pag. 21.Nor are grounds of prudence any Scripture grounds; to rule by prudence hath let in more will-worſhip then any thing; Prelacie had its prudence for every new additionall in worſhip, and government; and if Preſbytery like prudence too, let the Reader iudge what may follow.

Light.There is prudence which in the habit is an endowment from God, in the exerciſe a dutie from man, Matth. 10.16. whereby10 every ordinance of God is to be ordered to the beſt advantage for his honour, and the edification of his people. Oppoſite to this on the one hand is the corrupt and pragmaticall policie of ſuch, as when they profeſſe themſelves wiſe they become fooles, Rom. 1.22. and ſuch are they who pretend to perfect the Church of God by their inventions and traditions; and there is on the other hand a neglect and contempt of prudence, which hath brought a con­temptible confuſion upon the profeſſion of Religion, and this is moſt found among the ſects moſt oppoſite to Presbytery.

Smoke. Pag. 21.And what is that, not directly from Scripture, yet not repugnant? ſurely, Chriſts rule is not ſuch, he oppoſes any tradition to the com­mand of God, net directly from Scriptures is repugnant to Scrip­tures, ſuch is the oneneſſe, intireneſſe, indiviſibilitie, and eſſentialitie of the truth; He that is not with me is againſt me.

Light.Not directly from Scripture (ſay you) is repugnant to Scrip­ture; if you meane it univerſally, it is falſe, (as the precedent particulars doe evince) if you meane it of the ſubſtantials of faith and practice, you ſay true, but not to the purpoſe; of ſuch as theſe is the authoritie of our Saviour, He that is not with me is againſt me, Matth. 12.30. but of circumſtantials it is ſound, he that is not againſt me is with me, Mar. 9.40. And though it be for the honour of the word to be received for a rule of Religion both affirma­tively and negatively, yet to wring it and wreſt it to ſerve all turnes, where God meant to leave men to prudentiall accommo­dation of times, perſons, places, and occaſions, is to abuſe and diſ­honour it, and ſo doe moſt of thoſe who pretend moſt to magnifie the majeſtie of the word.

Smoke. Pag. 21.And for the Reformed Churches as a rule, that is to ſet the Sunne by the Diall, and not the Diall by the Sunne, we muſt ſet the Chur­ches by the word, and not Church by Church, and the word by the Church.

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Light.The Reformed Churches are not onely as the Diall to the Sun, but as the clocke to the Diall, and the word as the Sunne to both; when the Sunne doth not ſhine, nor the diall give a ſhadow, the clocke muſt be heeded for the houre of the day; and ſometimes one clocke may be a direction to another: and though one indivi­duall perſon or Church hath not power over another, yet many may have power over one, for the ſpirit of the Prophets is ſubie•t to the Prophets, 1 Cor 14.32. and whether they have rule & power over each other or no, one Church may be a patterne to another ſo farre as the word of God is a patterne to it, as Paul ſaid to the Corinthians, Be ye followers of me, even as I alſo am of Chriſt, 1 Cor. 11.1. or (where it is ſilent) ſo farre as the light of reaſon directeth.

SECT. V. Whether Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Preſbyteries be like the Independents gathering of Churches.

Smoke. Pag. 23.ANd when people are inſtructed, ſtill your worke remaines to prove your Preſbytery over Congregations, or a Church ga­thered out of a Church to be over a Church; which may upon the Preſbytery more inſtly be recriminated then where you doe ſo often recriminate upon gathered Churches; and me thinks to me it is un­reaſonable to taxe any for Church-gathering, when your Preſbytery is maintained by ſuch a kinde of principle; What is your Claſſicall, your Provinciall, your Nationall Preſbytery, but a Church gather­ed out of the reſt, call it a veronall, or repreſentative, or what you pleaſe?

Light.Still your worke remaines? You are ſtill putting worke upon me (as I told you before) which was no part of my underta­king, when I examined your Quere; and as unwilling to performe12 your own, for you ſay in the next precedent paragraph; it is not your worke to diſpute the Intereſt of Elders and people diſtinctly, and yet you have taken upon you a Diſcourſe of Church order in the opening of Mr. Prinnes Vindication; I did not ſo, nor was it need­full in the thing it ſelfe, being fully done by others, nor directly in­cident to my Anſwer to your paper; Nor if I thought it fit to ar­gue and to diſcuſſe that controverſie, would I doe it in a debate with you, for the reaſons fore-alleadged.

And for your recrimination, that Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Na­tionall Presbyteries are gatherings of Churches out of Churches, which the Presbyterians condemne in your partie, it is a very im­pertinent and perverſe compariſon; wherein there are many con­ſiderable differences, (that make it criminall in your Church, and commendable in Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Aſſemblies) which beſides many other are theſe;

Firſt, Theſe ſubordinate gatherings are not made out of any conceipt favouring of ſingularitie, diſdaine, or contempt of en­tire communion with thoſe out of whom they are gathered, as in your gatherings of Churches, but out of care and compaſſion to them to conſult and provide for their good, as the gathering of the principall Patriots out of the countrey to be united in the Houſe of Commons, is not for making of a Schiſme from their countrey, but for meeting in counſell and care for their countrey.

Secondly, This gathering into Claſſes, &c. is with conſent and free choice of thoſe Societies out of which they are gathered, as it is in the choice of Knights, Citizens and Burgeſſes for the Par­liament: not ſo in your Church gatherings, for thoſe who are left out, when you admit of Members in your ſelected choice for Church-way, are diſpleaſed with your neglects of them, and re­fuſall to adminiſter all the ordinances of God unto them.

Thirdly, Thoſe who you call out as Members of your new ga­thered Churches, might more conveniently joyne together in the adminiſtration of holy things, as they are by Gods providence diſpoſed of in Pariſhionall dwellings, then your covenanted mem­bers, who are many times in their habitations as farre diſtant as London and Dover, yea, ſometimes as farre as London and Am­ſterdam, Raterdam, Arnhem, or New England: But the gather­ing13 of Paſtours and Elders into Claſſicall Aſſemblies, is made with much conveniency, and withall in a kinde of neceſſitie, be­cauſe the Churches whom they repreſent cannot poſſibly all of them convene in one place, or if they could, they would be too many to be drawn from their dwellings, too many to be admitted to counſell and cenſure.

Fourthly, Gatherings of Miniſters and Elders into Claſſes, &c. makes much for preſervation of truth and peace in Parochiall con­gregations, but your gatherings of Churches are, and have proved the meanes to broach e••ours, and breed ſchiſmes.

Fifthly, The gathering of Elders for conſultation and proviſion for the welfare of other particular Churches, as it hath ſure ground of religious reaſon, ſo hath it the honour of moſt ancient and ho­nourable preſcription from the**Bin. Tom. 1. Concil. pag. 2. Excuſ. Pariſ. 1636. fourteenth yeere after the reſur­rection of Chriſt, Act. 15. to this day, whereas your gathering of Churches out of Churches in a State, and a time of reformation, is a new device, never practiſed, or approved by the godly in for­mer ages.

Sixthly, The gathering of Miniſters and Elders into Aſſem­blies Claſſicall, &c. is authorized by the Parliament, the ſupreame Iudicatory of the Kingdome, whereas your Church gathering is not allowed by authoritie, but taken up without it, and againſt it.

SECT. VI. It is unreaſonable to require an undertaking, that the beſt government in conſtitution ſhould he faultleſſe in execution; tyrannic more to be feared in In­dependency then in Preſbytery.

Smoke. Pag. 23.BƲt what if ſuch at your ſelfe and ſome other godly meeke of your way may propound nothing but wayes of meekneſſe, can you undertake to ſecure the people for hereafter, and for all, and for the way in its own nature?

14

Light.It is a moſt unreaſonable thing that you ſhould require ſuch a ſecuritie of thoſe who have the greateſt authoritie in their hands, much leſſe ſhould you looke for it from any private man, Miniſter or other; ſince no government how warrantable ſo ever, if ma­naged by ſinfull man, can be ſecured from all abuſe, either by falling ſhort of dutie, by remiſeneſſe, or overſhooting it by rigour; But Sir any rationall man that knoweth the regular conſtitution of the Presbyteriall Government, and the experimentall execution of it in the Churches where it is eſtabliſhed, may be more bold to un­dertake for it, both for the government it ſelfe, and for the moſt probable conſequences of it, then any may engage for the way of Independency, and the manifold evill effects and fruits of it, whereof ſee Mr.**c. 3. a p 59, &c. Bayly his Diſſwaſive from errours.

Smoke. Pag. 23.You know Epiſcopacis beganne in meekneſſe, and Biſhops were brought in firſt for good, and for peace, but how proved they? ty­ranny had ever a countenance of meekneſſe, and love, till it got ſeated on the throne.

Light.Epiſcopacie began at ſuch a time as this wherein we live, and upon occaſion of ſuch an evill as now is much complained of, viz. the turning of Religion into Faction, and it was taken up as a remedy againſt it; but when in ſtead of an Antidote againſt con­tention, it became an Engine of oppreſſion, by the ſlothfulneſſe of ſome, as well as by the ambition of others, (for if ſome had not beene willing to do too little, others had not been able to uſurpe too much) Presbytery was by the Reformed Churches reſtored, and the preſidencie which before was perpetuall, (for feare of the returne of tyranny) was made ſo mutable, that none might be ambitious of it, or injurious by it. And if tyranny have (as you ſay) a countenance of meekneſſe, and love untill it get to be ſeated on the throne, it may be probable that Independencie is preparing for a tyranny, for it pretends much meekneſſe and love, and if it could prevaile, it is like it would ſoone ſet up the tyranny which15 now it diſclaimeth in others; For the obſervation of Machiavell would in all probability prove true in many of thoſe who meete in Independencie,aaHomines ſub­inde magis ma­giſqueambitioſo•fieri, primo enin•co ſpectare ne ab aliis, oppriman­tur, poſtea etia••co euiti ut ipſi alios opprimere poſſins. Machi­avel. diſp. l. 1. c. 46. p. 188. Men (ſaith he) grow more and more ambi­tious, for firſt, they ſee to themſelves that they be not oppreſſed, but afterwards their endeavours are to oppreſſe others; So it was with the Anabaptiſts in Germanie, and ſo it would be in many of the ſame ſpirit, eſpecially ſuch as are hardened by the warres in all kinds and degrees of inhumane hoſtility; and if we may judge of their ſpirit by the ſpightfull, diſdainfull, and wrathfull writings, and threats, and facts of many of them who ſort themſelves under In­dependency, and their oppoſites under the name of Popiſh, Anti­chriſtian, and prophane, we can expect no moderation or mercy from them, if their might were matchable to their Malignity.

SECT. VII. Of the power of the Preſbytery for reformation of manners, compared with Prelacy; the evill effects of Independencie; the difference betwixt a diſcipline; and the diſcipline, Mr. Saltm. his precipitancie in writing, and in divul­ging what he hath written of Po­pery in the Covenant, or un­der the Covenant.

Smoke. Pag. 24.LOoke into other Reformed Kingdomes, and ſee what power of godlineſſe is there by reaſon of it; doe we not ſee huge bodies of Nations very ſinfull, corrupt, and formall? for Scotland, our Bre­threns preaching and watchfulneſſe, it may be more powerfull in a reformation of them then their government; and further I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforms the outward man: Prelacy and Biſhops had a government which was Antichri­ſtian, yet by an exact execution, &c.

Light.In granting that you doe, I ſhall not need to trouble my ſelfe16 with what you deny; it is enough for the preſent point, which you yeeld, that the Government may much reforme the out­ward man; and for the inward, you acknowledge preaching and watchfulneſſe may be more powerfull, (as in the Kingdome of Scotland) and ſo doe I; and for that you ſay of the Presbyteriall Government, if it be Antichriſtian, as you ſay, it is not like it ſhould be bleſſed with ſo good ſucceſſe as the Chriſtian Govern­ment of the Presbytery; and if that be deficient to reformation (as no power put into the hands of man is every way perfect in any Kingdome) the defects may be referred to ſome other re­quiſites to ſuch a purpoſe, rather then to Presbytery it ſelfe; but where other Ordinances are not wanting, either in a right rule, or in a regular practice, there Presbyterie formed up to ſuch di­rections and examples as are found in Scriptures, and the beſt re­formed Churches, is a better meanes to make men both Civil and Religions, then any Diſcipline or Government which hath been ordained and obſerved in the Church, ſince Popery and Superſtiti­on were excommunicated out of it.

As for Independency, which is your darling on which you dote, and in zeale unto it, hate the Presbyteriall Government, we ſee by ſad experience that as it hath prevailed, hereſies, ſchiſmes, and all manner of licentious exorbitancies have increaſed, though it have not beene ſet up by Authoritie, but ſuffered by connivences what might be expected from it, if (which God forbid) the ſol­licitations and endeavours for it ſhould advance to a toleration of it?

Smoke. Pag. 24.For your other reaſon, that my Texts make againſt not onely the ſuſpending for a time, but for ever, I anſwer: It is true, principles and circumſtances conſidered, for if neither the Government be Chriſts, nor the people Nationally a Church, &c. — how or when can you ſettle it, or what will you ſettle, or upon whom?

Light.For your other reaſon, that my Texts make againſt not onely the ſuſpending for a time, but for ever: Sr. in theſe words (though they be but few) as ſpoken in my name there be two great〈◊〉, for17 they are contrary both to your meaning and mine; to yours, be­cauſe there is your miſpriſion of one word for another, yea for a contrary, for you ſhould ſay for, and you ſay againſt the ſuſpending, &c. but as to me it may be thought my corruption, for you make me to allow of your Texts, as making for your purpoſe, whereas I ſay,aaMine Exam. and Reſolu­tion. p. 10. For thoſe two Texts which he alledgeth for the deferring of the Government, (and if there be any weight in them as to that pur­poſe they make againſt it, not for a time onely, but for ever) I com­mend to his conſideration, &c. but you leave out the parentheſis, which intimates my minde to be, that thoſe Texts doe not make for your purpoſe. And whereas you demand how, and when can you ſettle it, or what will ye ſettle, or upon whom? theſe are no Que­ſtions meet to be propounded to me, (who take not upon me to ſettle any government) but to the Parliament, who in part have really anſwered them already, and will doe it I hope more ſpee­dily and more fully then you would have them.

Smoke. Pag. 25.I plead for a delay onely in ſetting up a Diſcipline, not the Diſci­pline; or more plainly, that the Diſcipline be ſuch that the Covenan­ters may not violate that Article wherein they are bound to doe every thing according to the Word, and ſo prove unfaithfull in their Co­venant, while they are moſt zealous for it.

Light.And the Presbyterians plead not for a Diſcipline in common, but for the Diſcipline in ſpeciall, which is moſt agreeable to the word of God, againſt which they will admit of nothing; and if to it they adde ſomething (wherein the word leaves them to make out by prudence, and exemplary conformity what is of neceſſary practice, and not preſcribed in the Scriptures) they are not to be charged with doing any thing either againſt the Word, or againſt the Covenant.

Smoke. Pag. 25.And for the title of Popery which I put upon ſuch an obedience, which you ſay cannot be, becauſe diſcovered in the next Article of the18 Covenant; I anſwer, the Popery is not in the Covenant, but in the miſinterpretation upon it, and the miſtaken practiſe of it, which is the thing which I onely averre.

Light.This paſſage, as the laſt but one, to which I might adde many more, ſhews your precipitancie in ſending forth your fancies to publique view; you glory in the quick diſpatch of your Pen, and that there may be no delay at the Preſſe, one Printer will not ſerve your turne for your Booke, though of no great bulke, but two at the leaſt muſt be imployed for expedition in it; and when it is Printed, though there be very many and groſſe eſcapes, it muſt not ſtay to be reviſed, that any thing miſtaken by a Catalogue of the Errata may be corrected; ſo all things concur for application of the Proverbe to your Dictates, Feſtinans canis caecos parit catules; and ſo doe you put diſcovered for diſavowed in the next Article; betwixt which words there is ſo great difference, that diſcovered is for your opinion, diſavowed for mine; but you have your diſco­very, and it is of Popery, not in the Covenant, but in the interpreta­tion upon it, and the miſtaken practiſe of it; but whoſe interpre­tation is this? to me it appeares to be yours, by your next words.

Smoke. Pag. 25.Oh how ſoon may we be Popiſh under a covenant againſt it•I had as great a tythe once as another, but I could not hold it ſo, neither by Covenant, nor Goſpel.

Light.And may we ſoon be Popiſh under a Covenant againſt it? very ſoon; (for ſo much your pathetick interrogation imports) then Sr. comfort your ſelfe, as you are a Patrone of Hereticks and Schiſ­maticks, (pleading for indulgency to them, and toleration of them, though you know the Covenant is made expreſly againſt them) for how ſoone may Hereſie and Schiſme increaſe under a Covenant againſt them?

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SECT. VIII. Tythes not Jewiſh and Popiſh, as Mr. Saltm. pretendeth.

Smoke. Pag. 25.VVHat are the maintenance of Miniſters by Tythes? Iewiſh and Popiſh undeniably, yet no notice of this at all.

Light.How? Iewiſh and Popiſh undeniably? as undeniably as the Sab­bath was Iewiſh when the Prelates ſo called it, or the Doctrine of the Trinity Popiſh as Valentinus Gentilis tooke it when he diſ­liked the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches in that Article,aaQuod Eccleſia reformatae adhuc in fide Trinitatis cum Papiſtis conveniret Bell. praefat. in libr. de Christo. Tom. 1. ſccund Contro­verſ. general. p 271. becauſe they agreed with the Papiſts therein. You are groſly mi­ſtaken Sr. in the tenure of Tythes; for though there be a clamour taken up againſt them, by ſuch as make no ſcruple either of ſlan­der, or of ſacriledge, and ſome would change the Miniſters por­tion, which is their Maſters wages for his own worke, and reduce them to voluntary penſions of the people, becauſe they would have a liberty to begger them, who will not humour them in their fond, and falſe opinions, and licentious practices, but oppoſe them as of conſcience they are bound to doe, neither you nor all your party can prove them either Iewiſh, or Popiſh, as they are allowed, and received for the maintenance of the Miniſters of England; And becauſe you are ſo confident in your opinion of Mr. Nye, whom with Mr. GoodwinbbSmoke. p. 14. you cite for a worthy ſaying touching the Golden Ball of Government, I refer you for ſatisfaction to him, who will tell you as he hath done divers others, that Miniſters of the Goſpel may hold, and receive Tythes for their maintenance, by a right and title, which is neither Iewiſh nor Popiſh, but truly Chriſtian; and there is nothing Iewiſh or Popiſh in Tythes but the Aſſignation of the decima decimarum from theeeNum. 18.28. Leviticall Prieſts to the high Prieſt, from the high Prieſt to theddIn veterilege primitiae debe­bantur ſacerdo­tibus, decima autem Levitis, & quia ſub ſa­cerdotibus Le­vitae cram, Do­minus mandavi•ut ipſi loco deci­marum ſolverent ſummo ſacerdor•decimam deci­mae: unde nunc cadem ratione tenentur Clerici ſummo pontifici decimam dare ſi exigeret. Aquin. Sum. 22. q. 87. a. 4. ad 3. Soto 9. Juſt. q. 4. art. 4. ad 3. Lorin. in Num. 18. v. 28. p. 687. Pope, and from the Pope to the King; when firſt Pope Ʋrbane gave them to Richard the Second, to aid him againſt Charles the French20 King, and others that upheld Clement the Seventh againſt him, as Polydore VirgileePolyd. Virgil. Hiſt. l. 16. relateth. And King Henry the Eighth taking from the Pope the title of Head of the Church to himſelfe byffAn. 26. Hen. 8. c. 1. Polt. A­bri•••. p. 561. Act of Parliament, tooke from him theggIbid. c. 2. p. 565. Tenths, and other profits annexed to that title, which were ſettled upon the Crowne by Statute in the twenty ſixth yeere of Henry the Eighth; ſo that the Iewiſh high Prieſthood being expired, the Papall Lordſhip aboliſhed, the Tythes paid under thoſe Titles may be called Iewiſh and Popiſh, but not that which is aſſigned for the maintenance of Miniſters, becauſe they are yet to doe ſervice to their Maſter, and ſo to receive the maintenance of his allowance for his worke, which fellow ſervants cannot take upon them to take away with­out preſumption; their doore neighbour will not allow them a power to appoint the wages of their ſervants, much leſſe may they uſurpe upon the Right of God, and his Miniſters, to alienate them from the ſupport of his ſervice and worſhip; for that is ra­ther Popiſh, for the Pope hath tranſlated the Tenure from the Miniſters to the Monaſteries, to Nunneries, and to what purpoſe he thought fit to aſſigne them, and thence came in the tranſlation of titles from the incumbent Miniſters, the making of Leaſes by the Biſhop, Patrone and Incumbent, without ſtint and terme of yeeres to Lay perſons, untill they were reſtrained by thehhSr. Edw. Cooke in the firſt part of the Inſtitut. of the Lawes of England. l. 1. c. 7. Sect. 58. fol. 44. p. 1. State in the 1. of Eliz. 13. ſo that if you have given up your tithes to your Pariſhioners of Braſteed, and told the Committee of Exa­minations ſo, (as you imply in the paſſage repeated) you are more Popiſh therein then other Miniſters of the Goſpel, who retaine them and officiate to the people that pay them in all the Ordi­nances of Chriſt, which you refuſe to doe; and as I heare, you have renounced your Ordination to the Miniſtery; if ſo, there is no reaſon you ſhould have them, whether they be lewiſh, Popiſh, or Chriſtian.

You will ſay perhaps I make this plea of the tenure of Tythes for my profit, whereas it would be more for the ſecuritie of my conſcience, and ſupport of my credit againſt the imputation of covetouſneſſe, to give them up as antiquated Coremonies, as you have done; and truly Sr. if I had ever thought them either Iewiſh or Popiſh, I ſhould rather have ſet you an example of reſilling21 them, then (being your Senior, as I am) have ſuffered you to be before me as my patterne for a conſcientious recuſancie of ſuch a revenue; But I never read in any Booke, much leſſe in yours, (wherein in caſe of Tythes you play not the Diſputant, but the Dictator) which could make me ſuſpect them to be Anti-Evan­gelicall; nor hath any reſpect to advantage made me of a better opinion of their title then yours, ſince I have rejected the offer of thrice as much benefit by Tythes as now I have. And if Tythes were taken away, I am confident I ſhould be no loſer by another allowance; though it may be I may fall under a miſrepreſenta­tion, as if I argued for them as Demetrius for the honour of Di­ana, when I mind••••ing more then the gaine of Tythes, as he did the gaine of her ſilver Shrines; and I may the rather ſuſpect it from ſome of your ſide, (though not from you) becauſe I find the like charge laid upon Mr. Edw. byiiWhiſp. in the eare of Mr. Tho. Edw. p. 1.2.15. Mr. W.W. in his Whiſper in his care: wh•as he is like Luther in the vigour and freedome of his ſpirit, ſo is he, as Luther ſaid of himſelfe, of all ſinnes the freeſt from covetouſneſſe; and on my knowledge, whereas he hath had the offer of many good Benefices, he reſuſed them, and hath no Tythes at all for his maintenance, but a voluntary penſion, which is not competent for his charge, or paines either in an anſwerable preportion, or a ſeaſonable payment; and yet is he contented with it, minding much more the doing of the worke he undertooke, then the receiving of the wages.

SECT. IX. Of Mr. Colemans obſervation of the Church of Scotland.

Smoke. Pag. 28.TO your other of the bleſſings, and bleſſed fruits in Scotland, th••there is no Hereſie nor Schiſme, l•t Mr. Coleman our learned and pious Brother ſpeake for us both from his experiences.

Light.I〈◊〉by this paſſage you have not read the Booke you pretend22 to anſwer; for Mr. Colemans experience was not of Hereſie, and Schiſme in the Church of Scotland, but (as he gave inſtance) of the Presbyteries uſurpation of the power of baniſhment; and if you meane Mr. Colemans charge for that, (as I ſuppoſe you doe) you might have taken notice of an Anſwer to it in the ſeventh Section of mine Examination of your New Quere, p. 21. which, though it were in part but conjecturall, is confirmed by a more certain Anſwer of the Reverend Commiſſioner Mr. **Mr. Gillespie his Nihil Re­ſpondes. p. 24. Gillespie in theſe words, What from Scotland? I my ſelfe (ſaith Mr. Cole­man) did heare the Preſbyterie of Edinborough cenſure a woman to be baniſhed out of the gates of the City; was not this an incroach­ment? It had beene an incroachment indeed if it had been ſo. But he will excuſe me if I anſwer him in his owne Language (which I uſe not) p. 3. & 5. It is at the beſt a moſt uncharitable ſlander, and there was either ignorance or mindleſneſſe in him that ſets it downe.

There is no baniſhment in Scotland but by the Civill Magiſtrate, who ſo farre aydeth and aſſiſteth Church Diſcipline, that prefane and ſcandalous perſons, when they are found unruly and incorrigible, are puniſhed with baniſhment, or otherwiſe. A ſtranger coming at a time into one of our Preſbyteries, and hearing of ſomewhat which was re­preſented to, or reported from the Magiſtrate, ought to have ſo much circumspection and charitie as not to make ſuch a raſh and un­true report. He might have at leaſt inquired when he was in Scot­land, and informed himſelfe better, whether Preſbytery or the Civill Magiſtrate doe baniſh. If he made no ſuch inquirie, he was raſh in judging: if he did, his offence is greater, when after information he will not underſtand. And if you put your cauſe to the arbitration of Mr. Coleman, you will find cauſe by the ſentence to conceive him to be no more an Independent, then we have to take him to be a Presbyterian; and I ſuppoſe I may ſay he is more ours then yours, ſince he hath put himſelfe into the Aſſociation of a Claſſicall Aſ­ſembly, in the Province of London; howſoever whether he prove a Participle, or a Neuter, I know you will not be concluded by his either opinion, or practiſe, no more ſhall we.

23

SECT. X. A Compariſon of young men and old, for prudence and counſell. Of viſions and dreames, where the ſecond of Ioel verſ. 28. and Act. 2.17. are vindicated from Mr. Saltm. his miſtaking and miſapplication of them.

Smoke. Pag. 29.To that of Iob — which you apply in way of reproach to the younger, whom you call as it were greene heads, &c. Smoke. p.. 29.

Light.In ſtead of acknowledgement of your miſapplication of Iob 32. verſ. 6, 7. where with I charge you, Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke, you lay a charge upon me, for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads. That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both, I will ſet down firſt my words to you, then yours to me; my words are theſe.

For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned, which are taken out of Iob 32. verſ. 6, 7. Why doe not dayes ſpeake, and multitude of yeares teach knowledge? they make nothing for his purpoſe; for the meaning of them is not, that Government, or Di­ſcipline, or any other uſefull thing ſhould not be with all convenient ſpeed eſtabliſhed, but that the ancient with whom is wiſdome, Iob 12.12. the gray-headed and very aged men, Chap. 15.10. who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres, ſhould be heard, and heeded in matters of adviſe, and conſultation, before ſuch green-headed Counſellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine, 1 Kings 12.13, 14.

Smoke. Pag. 29.And your Anſwer to them is, The elder I eſteeme as Fathers, and the younger we know are ſuch in whom the Lord ſpeakes more gloriouſly, as he himſelfe ſaith, Your young men ſhall ſee viſions, and upon your ſonnes and daughters will I powre out my ſpirit, your old men ſhall dreame deames. Now whether is it more excellent to dreame24 dreames, or to ſee viſions? The Lord delivered Iſrael by the young men of the Provinces; Surely we may more ſafely hearken to the younger that ſee viſions of reformation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely.

Light.I ſpake no more either in praiſe of old men, or diſparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in queſtion betwixt us, yet thence you have taken occaſion to magnifie young men, and to vilifie the old, alleadging the ſaying of the Prophet Ioel, Your old men ſhall dreame dreames, and your young men ſhall ſee viſions, and thereupon demanding, whether is more excellent to dreame dreames, or to ſee viſions: you reſolve the Queſtion your ſelfe thus; Surely, we may more ſafely hearken to the younger that ſee viſions of Refor­mation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely.

And doe all, or onely, or moſt young men ſee viſions of Refor­mation? and all, or onely, or moſt old men but dreame dreames of it? If there be not ſuch an Antitheſis betwixt them, your com­parative theſis is an errour of youth, a ſlander of age, and I ſhall not doubt, if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell, with the old mans crutch (bring what weapons you will or can) to beat you out of the field, or at leaſt to give you the foyle.

But beſides your diſparagement of old men, I have ſome what to ſay to you for miſtaking and miſapplying the words of the Pro­phet, Ioel 2.28. brought in by the Apeſtle, Act. 2.17. firſt, for the defence of old men; you make as if it were ſafer to hearken to young men then to them, as if the young men were wiſer coun­ſellours then the old.

I grant before-hand that ſometimes there may be young men, (as Ioſeph, Daniel, and Samuel,) who may have a ſpirit of wiſ­dome, and thereby may be fit to give counſell, and to governe the wayes of the aged; but ſetting aſide ſingular and extraordinary examples, compare age & youth in the generall, and the reſolution of reaſon and example will be, that old men are fitter to direct and guide the young, then contrariwiſe; for in old men the paſſions and perturbations of the minde (which give great impediment to prudence, (for they are to reaſon as fumes and vapours about a25 candle, which dimme the light thereof) are more ſubdued then in young men. Beſides experience (which is both the parent of wiſdome, of which it is begotten, and the nurſe which bringeth it on to a further growth and proficiency) falls not within the fathome of a young mans reach, but of the old man; hence is it that Solomon ſaith; The hoary head is a•rowne of glory if it be found in the way of righteouſneſſe, Prov. 16.31. and that by the law, the younger ſort were to riſe up before the hoary head, and to honour the face of the old man, Levit. 19.32. For with the ancient is wiſ­dome, and in length of dayes underſtanding, Iob 12.12.

And hence it is, that the Counſellours and Governours of Com­mon-weales, are called Senators, and their Aſſembly**Senatus nomen dedit aetas, nam i•dem. patres ſunt. Quintil. Inſtit orat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 38. Senatus, from age: and in the old Teſtament they are called the Elders of Iſrael, and in the New thoſe whoſe function requireth of them a wiſdome of the beſt kinde, and higheſt degree, (for it muſt be ſuch a wiſdome as muſt goe beyond his ſubtiltie who deceiveth all the world, Rev. 12.6.9. ) are called Preſbyters, a word in Greeke of the ſame ſignification with Elders in Engliſh. And for exam­ple you cannot be forgetfull of the Story of R•h•boams old and young Counſellours, 1 King. 12. nor what prelation is given to the old above the young in that Story; and while you remember it, you ſhould not ſway the preeminence on the young mens ſide againſt the old men, as you have done.

Beſides the Scriptures, there be manifold inſtances againſt your fence in the difference of age and youth, I will minde you of ſome, as that ofaaTuum eſt un­decunqueevocare & aſcribere tibi (exemple Moſis) ſenes, non juve­nes Ber. de Conſ. lib. 4. cap. 4. col. 886. Bernard counſelling Eugenius to call to him Counſel­lours (as Moſes did) that were old men, not young men; and of the Lacedemonians, of whombbApud Lacedae­monies ii qui ampliſſimuns ma­giſtratum gerunt, ut ſunt, ſic etiam appellantur ſenes. Cicer. Cat•. Major. ſeu de Senect. Tom. 3. •p•­rum Cicer. pag. 408. in fol. Cicero ſaith, that they who are the chiefe Magiſtrates, whoſe authoritie is of moſt ample extent, as they are, ſo they are called old men.

And among the Romans aged prudence was ſo much honou­red, thatcVt quiſqueatate antecellit, ita ſententia principatum abtine•. Ibid. pag. 415. in the Colledge of Sages, Sentences were partly valued by ſenioritie. And there is good ground for this great eſtimation of old men,dMaximas Respub. per adoleſcentes labefast•s, à ſenibus ſuſte••ates & reſti••as reperia­tis. Ibid. p. 408. for great Common-weales, as he ſheweth, which have26 been ruined by young men, have been repaired and reſtored by old men. Such as Ageſilaus was, whom (though among the vulgar E­gyptians, (when he came into their Countrey, and they ſaw no ſtate­ly traine about him, but an old gray beard laid on the graſſe by the ſeaſide,) a little man that looked ſimply on the matter, in a thread bare gowne fell a laughing at him) yet the chiefe Captaines and Go­vernours of King Tachis honourably received, and were marvellouſ­ly deſirous to ſee him, for the great fame that went abroad of him and he was famous for his wiſdome both Military and Civill, asccPlutarch. in Ageſil. pag. 629.630. Plu­tarch reporteth in the Story of his life. To him I could adde ma­ny examples of later time, and neerer home; I will name only one, and that is my Reverend brotherffSee his booke de Diphthongis aut Bivocatibus. Mr. Tho. Gataker, who though he have been an old man a great while, hath given (of late ſince his ſickneſſe, and ſeceſſion from the Aſſembly) ſuch a ſpe­cimen of a pregnant apprehenſion and faithfull memory, as may aſſure a judicious Reader, that albeit his body be weake, his braine is not ſo; though his head have been long gray, his wit is yet greene and flouriſhing.

Secondly, Now for mine other exception againſt your compa­riſon; In it you not onely give preeminence to young men before old, but preferre them in this, that young men ſee viſions of refor­mation, and old men dreame dreames of it onely; wherein you wrap up three particulars, which you take for granted, but it will