LIGHT FOR SMOKE: OR, A Cleare and diſtinct Reply to a darke and confuſed Anſwer of Mr. Iohn Saltmarſh, &c.
SECT. I. Of the Title Independent, in what ſence it is diſclaimed, in what acknoweldged; and of ſubordination idenied by Mr. S. and puritie in the Church held neceſſary by him.
Smoke.Pag.aaIn the former edition the anſwer to me beginneth a new order of figures, ſo this quotation is p. 2. but in the ſecond edition it is p. 12. 12.
FOr the notion of Independencie you ſpeake of, I dare not owne it, becauſe I account my ſelfe both under a ſpirituall and civill ſupremacie, under Jeſus Chriſt and the Magiſtrate ſeverally, and exempt from neither.
Light.Your pretended dependencie on the Magiſtracie will not exempt you from the name or notion of Independencie, (a title diverſly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party, while ſome own and honour it, ſome diſclaime and abhor it,bbMien Exam. of the New Quere. p. 2. as I have formerly ſhewed) for you give the Magiſtrate ſo little power in matter of Religion, thatccSmoke. p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of conſcience2 ſcience therein; cnceiving that, asddM. SAltm. Epiſtle to the Beleevers of ſeverall opinions. p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London, ſome travelling from the North, ſome from the South, ſome from the Eaſt, and ſome from the Weſt, yet all come thither, though there may be ſome miſtaking of the way in each, ſo is the gathering of the Saints into heaven. Which if you meane of ſo many ſeveral Sects of beleevers as in this Booke, and ſome other of your Pamphlets you plead for, you meane it of ſome who are as farre out of the way to heaven, as if a man at Lichfield ſhould travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London, or as if at Barwicke he ſhould travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough.
Smoke. Pag. 12.We dare not be Claſſicall, Provinciall, Nationall, theſe are no formes of wholeſome words, to which we are commended, nor know we any ſuch power, but that of Brethren, Miniſterie, and Fellowſhip; and if you call the Churches of Chriſt Independent for this, we muſt ſuffer till the Lord bring forth our righteouſneſſe as the noone-day.
Light.The graduall ſubordination of Aſſemblies againſt the Independencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of Mr. Samuel Rutherford, ſo that it is needleſſe to take up their defence in this place, at leaſt with you, who (as I have obſerved your genius) are not fit to be taken for an Antagoniſt in any Polemicall point.
And for that you ſay, they are no formes of wholeſome words, it is no more then the Arians ſaid of the words Trinitas, Eſſentia, Hemoeuſios, & Perſona, becauſe they found them not in the Scripture; And if you were not ſwayed by a ſpirit of Libertiniſme, you would thinke them very wholſome words, as ſignifying ſoveraigne remedies againſt the ruptures of Schiſme, and uleers or gangrenes of Hereſie.
Smoke. Pag. 12.Nor know we any ſuch power, but that of Brethren, Miniſters and Fellowſhip.
Light.Doe you not know Sr. that that which is Miniſterie and ſervice in reſpect of God, may be rulel and authoritie in reſpect of men? are there not Officers in the Church called Elders? and are not thoſe Elders Rulers? and thoſe Elders and Rulers Fathers? and is there not a ſpirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Goſpel? 1 Cor. 4.15. and muſt not theſe by the fifth Commandement be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood, and Fellowſhip? and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers? and may not the father, as the child gives him cauſe, uſe both the rod and the ſpirit of meekneſſe? if not, ſurely the Apoſtle would not have put this Queſtion to the Corinthians, Shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the ſpirit of meekneſſe? verſ. 21. of the ſame Chapter.
Smoke. Pag. 12.And if you call the Churches of Chriſt Independent for this, wee muſt ſuffer untill the Lord bring forth our righteouſneſſe as the noon-day.
Light.If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Chriſt, I would call them Dependent, for the moſt of them are ſubordinate to Claſſicall, Provinciall and Nationall Aſſemblies; not Independent, as the feweſt are, and of thoſe few ſome of them are ſo unſound in doctrine that they deſerve not the title of Churches to be put upon them; and if you profeſſe your ſelfe Independent in that ſence you have acknowledged, and for that be ſo called, I pray you Sr. what ſuffering doe you complaine of? is it any ſuffering to you to be called by your Name Mr. Saltmarſh, which you owne? and foro the bringing forth of your righteouſneſſe as the noone day; I muſt tell you Sr. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes diſcovery, that all may ſee, (but thoſe whoſe eyes are darkened with your Smoke) that the unrighteouſneſſe of thoſe Sectaries, whom you embrace as Independent Brethren, in broken forth as the ſmoke of the bottomleſſe pit, Revel. 9.2. with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion.
SECT. II. The Objection of unſeaſonableneſſe of Mr. Saltm. his Quare juſtified, and his groſſe miſtake or wilfull falſification of my words detected.
Smoke. Pag. 14.VVHat better ſeaſon could I come in then ſuch a one wherein things were but moving and ripening towards eſtabliſhment? where no thing is ſetled, there nothing can be diſturbed — And whereas you ſay the Parliaments determinations were finall, that holds better for me who might have ſpoken to much leſſe purpoſe had I ſtaid till and had beene done, and the determinations ended and become finall; ſure it was a time then to ſpeake or never; and by your owne account too, for you are pleaſed to reckon up the proceedings of the State in the buſineſſe of Religion, which are ſuch as had I ſtaid I had had a worſe ſeaſon.
Light.In the Title page of my Examination I ſaid your Quaere was unſeaſoanble, and gave reaſons thereof, pag. 4, 5. and among others I reckoned up foure particulars of the ſubordination, and exerciſe of the Presbyteriall Diſcipline, ſet out already by Authority of Parliament, in reſpect whereof your Quere and determination upon it came too late; and it might have beene more ſeaſonable either while the matters were in debate of the Aſſembly of Divines, or when firſt the votes of the Aſſembly were preſented to the Parliament; but when both Parliament and Aſſembly, after much debate, were ſo farre, and ſo publiquely engaged for the Presbyteriall Government, it was too late for ſuch a novice as you by ſo poore and trifling a paper as you put forth to offer to oppoſe it; which was not like (being of ſo little worth) to be of any great weight with the Parliament, (though ſome Independents who will have all their Geeſe to be Swans, ſaid of it, it was a very rationall peece, whoſe fond opinion of it advanced it to the reputation to be thought worthy of a refutation) all the miſchiefe it was like to doe (for no good could reaſonably be looked for5 from it) was to interpoſe betwixt the command of the Magiſtrate, and the obedience of the people, and to prepare ſuch as are ſilly and perverſe to a prejudice, and to make them refractory againſt reformation intended; and this is one part of the Independents good ſervice they doe to the civill Authority.
Smoke. Pag. 15.For bayting my Quere with truth and peace, you allude to Chriſts allegory that we are fiſhers of men, and if I have no worſe things to bayte with then theſe two, truth and peace, none need I hope to be afraid of the hooke.
Light.In the ſecond Section of my Booke having ſet downe the Title of your looſe ſheete, A new Quere, &c. I ſay thus; He knew well enough the humour of liſtening after newes prevaileth with our people of all ſorts, and therefore being to fiſh in troubled waters he putteth upon his hooke that baite at which it was like many would be nibling. Where it is plaine as may be, my meaning was that your bait was Novelty, not Truth and Peace, where with I begin a new ſentence, and ſpeake diſtinctly of them afterwards, and therefore I may well come upon you with your owne Quere, (miſapplied to me) Why deale you not more candidly?Smoke. p. 16. why are you not more faithfull in your interpretation to the Originall?
SECT. III. Rom. 14.23. Whatſoever is not of faith is ſinne, no barre to the eſtabliſhment of the Proſbyteriall Government; Mr. Saltm. his diſtinction of a State and publique conſcience and a perſonall conſcience.
Smoke. Pag. 17.SInce you will helpe me to prove you are welcome, you have furniſhed me with one Argument more, you are a faire enemie to l•nd out your owne weapon; and n•w you have made your Argument6 halfe for me I ſhall make the other halfe my ſelfe. What the Impoſers of Government cannot doe in faith they ſinne, this is your halfe Argument, but you take it for granted our Impoſers of Government are not ſuch, but ſuch as are fully perſwaded, and can ſet up the Government in faith.
Light.ffPag. 9. of mine Exam. I ſhewed you ſhould frame your Argument, according to the ſcope of your Quere, rather againſt the eſtabliſhment of a government by the Magiſtrate, then againſt ſubmiſſion to a government by the people; and you ſeeme to take this as a courteſie from me, but you ill deſerve it, for you repeat it ſo imperfectly as to obſcure the light of it, and to impaire the ſtrength of it; for you bring it in thus: What the Impoſers of Government cannot doe of faith they ſinne; whereas in my Booke, out of which you ſhould fairely, nd faithfully have tranſcribed, the argument hath it more dearcly and fully in theſe words: Thoſe that ſet up a Government whereof they are not fully perſwaded in their mind, and which they cannot do in faith, do ſinne. To this major you adde a minor and concluſion, as followeth.
Smoke. Pag. 18.But the Parliament cannot be fully perſwaded of this government, therefore if they ſet it up they ſinne; and they cannot be fully perſwaded, becauſe the State or publique conſcience cannot conſent at this time; and the State conſcience cannot conſent, becauſe it hath no Scripture to ſecure it; for how can the Parliament be ſaid to be fully perſwaded, &c. unleſſe they could fully ſigne it with a jus divinum, or divine right? nothing but Scripture and the Word can properly fully perſwade.
Light.Thoſe that ſet up a Government, &c. This you call my Argument, but it is yours; for I deny your minor propoſition, and conſequently your concluſion, wherein you impute ſinne unto the Parliament, if they ſet up Presbyteriall Government. And you tell us of a State or publique conſcience, and of that you ſay in the laſt page of your book, it is with a publique or State conſcience as7 it is with a perſonall and particular conſcience, what is done muſt be done in faith, or elſe there is weakneſſe, doubting, and ſinne; now where there is not a full conſent, and perſwaſion from the Word of faith, there cannot be faith properly — if the laws of truth were founded, as the laws of civill States, in a meere legiſlative power, then Popery hath had as good aſſurance as any, they have had moſt voices, moſt councols. I wonder Sr. how you that ſo contract the Church into a particular Congregation, and who will not endure to heare of a Church of ſuch a latitude, as to be called Nationall, can allow of ſuch a large conſcience as a State and publique conſcience: and you reduce it to the ſame rule that you doe a perſonall, and a particular conſcience, and of both you ſay, they cannot have a full conſent and perſwaſion but from the word of faith; and doe you meane thereby, that whatſoever the State alloweth muſt have a particular warrant from the word of God? and that the civill Sanction muſt be ſet on nothing but that which hath the ſtampe of a Jus Divinum upon it? if ſo, you ſo much pinion the civill power, as to make it of little uſe for Government, either of Church or State.
Although againe you be as much too looſe (as here you are too nice) in that to the Magiſtrate you give libertie to different Religions, all pretending to the word of God, though in many points repugnant one to another.
For that of the Apoſtle, whatſoever is not of faith is ſinne, Rom. 14.23. it imports (as ſome expound it) that all the workes of Infidels are ſinnes, that it belongeth alſo to beleevers, and boundeth them ſo in their Chriſtian practice, that they muſt doe nothing againſt conſcience, nothing with a doubting conſcience, nothing at all which hath not warrant from the Word either in generall principles, or particular concluſions; and it ſerves likewiſe to ſhut out meere humane inventions from the worſhip of God, and the luxuriant fruitfulneſſe of humane fancie, againſt which the Ancient and OrthodoxeaaTert. depraeſcript. adverſ. haeret. Hilar. in Pſal. 132. Hieron. contra Helvid. Aug. contra. Petil. l. 3. c. 6. Doctors have given many cautions, which Proteſtant Writers pertinently bring in againſt Popiſh Traditions, and additions thereto. But makes nothing either againſt the States eſtabliſhing of the Presbyteriall Government, nor againſt the peoples yeelding to it for want of faith, ſince for a great part8 of it, it is grounded on the Word of God, and is in no part of it repugnant to it.
SECT. IIII. Mr. Saltm. his unequall dealing in diſtributing his owne and his adverſaries worke: The Preſbyterie not like Prelacie in unwarrantableneſſe by the word of God. Of Prudence how for of lawfull uſe in Religious matters.
Smoke. Pag. 20.NOw you are to prove more then perhaps you thought on, that is, to cleare a Church Covenant, which many of your way are againſt, for though you condemne it in ſome Churches, yet a Nationall Church-Covenant you plead for.
Light.By what law would you put me to cleare a Church-covenant? it is no part of my worke in the taske I undertooke, and if you may decline diſcuſſing the impoſition of Proteſtations (as you do in the next precedent paragraph) though mentioned by me as a proofe againſt you, and as you doe the objection made from the deferring of our Saviours Baptiſme till he was about thirtie yeers of age,hhSmoke. p. 37. as you doe likewiſe in the further proſecution of your Reply, why ſhould you take upon you to appoint me an impertinent worke, and which is more, that which is repugnant to my judgement? for you ſay it is to cleare a Church-covenant, which is rather your office then mine, who thinke it fitter to be accuſed then cleared.
Smoke. Pag. 20, 21.You grant that the Government is but in ſome parts warrantable by the word of God, ſo was Epiſcopacy and Prelacy in ſome parts of it, there is not any falſe worſhip or way but it hath ſome parts of truth in it, the great image had a head of gold, &c. truth muſt be all one and the ſame, and homogencall, not in parts.
Light.You allow your ſelfe too much libertie in changing my words, which have their weight and pertinency, from whence if you vary, you marre the matter; I ſaid not the Government is but in ſome parts warrantable by the word of God, but in the chiefe parts, which you will not ſay of Prelacy, for that conſiſteth in being chiefe, in aſſuming a Lordly preeminence over their brethren of the Miniſtery; but the chiefe parts of the Presbyteriall Government have their warrant in the word, and why not the reſt? Beſides, it is not enough to have ſome parts, or the chiefe parts of government warrantable by the word of God, but it muſt be in no part contrary to the word of God; and ſo we may ſay of Preſbytery, not ſo of Prelacie. You ſay truth muſt be all one and the ſame, homogencall in all parts, that is, if you ſpeake to the point, all truth muſt be onely Scripture truth; but hath not the light of nature taught the heathens many truths who never ſaw the Scripture? and is any government reduced to practice without ſome prudentiall ſupplyes, in divers particulars wherein the Scripture is ſilent? as for the Elders in a Congregation, how many they ſhould be, whether perpetuall or annuall, and what their qualifications ſhould be for the meaſure of knowledge, and other abilities, and whether they ſhould be maintained at the charge of the Church, and there are many Queries concerning the particulars of the Deacons office, which cannot be reſolved by any direction of the written word.
Smoke. Pag. 21.Nor are grounds of prudence any Scripture grounds; to rule by prudence hath let in more will-worſhip then any thing; Prelacie had its prudence for every new additionall in worſhip, and government; and if Preſbytery like prudence too, let the Reader iudge what may follow.
Light.There is prudence which in the habit is an endowment from God, in the exerciſe a dutie from man, Matth. 10.16. whereby10 every ordinance of God is to be ordered to the beſt advantage for his honour, and the edification of his people. Oppoſite to this on the one hand is the corrupt and pragmaticall policie of ſuch, as when they profeſſe themſelves wiſe they become fooles, Rom. 1.22. and ſuch are they who pretend to perfect the Church of God by their inventions and traditions; and there is on the other hand a neglect and contempt of prudence, which hath brought a contemptible confuſion upon the profeſſion of Religion, and this is moſt found among the ſects moſt oppoſite to Presbytery.
Smoke. Pag. 21.And what is that, not directly from Scripture, yet not repugnant? ſurely, Chriſts rule is not ſuch, he oppoſes any tradition to the command of God, net directly from Scriptures is repugnant to Scriptures, ſuch is the oneneſſe, intireneſſe, indiviſibilitie, and eſſentialitie of the truth; He that is not with me is againſt me.
Light.Not directly from Scripture (ſay you) is repugnant to Scripture; if you meane it univerſally, it is falſe, (as the precedent particulars doe evince) if you meane it of the ſubſtantials of faith and practice, you ſay true, but not to the purpoſe; of ſuch as theſe is the authoritie of our Saviour, He that is not with me is againſt me, Matth. 12.30. but of circumſtantials it is ſound, he that is not againſt me is with me, Mar. 9.40. And though it be for the honour of the word to be received for a rule of Religion both affirmatively and negatively, yet to wring it and wreſt it to ſerve all turnes, where God meant to leave men to prudentiall accommodation of times, perſons, places, and occaſions, is to abuſe and diſhonour it, and ſo doe moſt of thoſe who pretend moſt to magnifie the majeſtie of the word.
Smoke. Pag. 21.And for the Reformed Churches as a rule, that is to ſet the Sunne by the Diall, and not the Diall by the Sunne, we muſt ſet the Churches by the word, and not Church by Church, and the word by the Church.
Light.The Reformed Churches are not onely as the Diall to the Sun, but as the clocke to the Diall, and the word as the Sunne to both; when the Sunne doth not ſhine, nor the diall give a ſhadow, the clocke muſt be heeded for the houre of the day; and ſometimes one clocke may be a direction to another: and though one individuall perſon or Church hath not power over another, yet many may have power over one, for the ſpirit of the Prophets is ſubie•t to the Prophets, 1 Cor 14.32. and whether they have rule & power over each other or no, one Church may be a patterne to another ſo farre as the word of God is a patterne to it, as Paul ſaid to the Corinthians, Be ye followers of me, even as I alſo am of Chriſt, 1 Cor. 11.1. or (where it is ſilent) ſo farre as the light of reaſon directeth.
SECT. V. Whether Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Preſbyteries be like the Independents gathering of Churches.
Smoke. Pag. 23.ANd when people are inſtructed, ſtill your worke remaines to prove your Preſbytery over Congregations, or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church; which may upon the Preſbytery more inſtly be recriminated then where you doe ſo often recriminate upon gathered Churches; and me thinks to me it is unreaſonable to taxe any for Church-gathering, when your Preſbytery is maintained by ſuch a kinde of principle; What is your Claſſicall, your Provinciall, your Nationall Preſbytery, but a Church gathered out of the reſt, call it a veronall, or repreſentative, or what you pleaſe?
Light.Still your worke remaines? You are ſtill putting worke upon me (as I told you before) which was no part of my undertaking, when I examined your Quere; and as unwilling to performe12 your own, for you ſay in the next precedent paragraph; it is not your worke to diſpute the Intereſt of Elders and people diſtinctly, and yet you have taken upon you a Diſcourſe of Church order in the opening of Mr. Prinnes Vindication; I did not ſo, nor was it needfull in the thing it ſelfe, being fully done by others, nor directly incident to my Anſwer to your paper; Nor if I thought it fit to argue and to diſcuſſe that controverſie, would I doe it in a debate with you, for the reaſons fore-alleadged.
And for your recrimination, that Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Presbyteries are gatherings of Churches out of Churches, which the Presbyterians condemne in your partie, it is a very impertinent and perverſe compariſon; wherein there are many conſiderable differences, (that make it criminall in your Church, and commendable in Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Aſſemblies) which beſides many other are theſe;
Firſt, Theſe ſubordinate gatherings are not made out of any conceipt favouring of ſingularitie, diſdaine, or contempt of entire communion with thoſe out of whom they are gathered, as in your gatherings of Churches, but out of care and compaſſion to them to conſult and provide for their good, as the gathering of the principall Patriots out of the countrey to be united in the Houſe of Commons, is not for making of a Schiſme from their countrey, but for meeting in counſell and care for their countrey.
Secondly, This gathering into Claſſes, &c. is with conſent and free choice of thoſe Societies out of which they are gathered, as it is in the choice of Knights, Citizens and Burgeſſes for the Parliament: not ſo in your Church gatherings, for thoſe who are left out, when you admit of Members in your ſelected choice for Church-way, are diſpleaſed with your neglects of them, and refuſall to adminiſter all the ordinances of God unto them.
Thirdly, Thoſe who you call out as Members of your new gathered Churches, might more conveniently joyne together in the adminiſtration of holy things, as they are by Gods providence diſpoſed of in Pariſhionall dwellings, then your covenanted members, who are many times in their habitations as farre diſtant as London and Dover, yea, ſometimes as farre as London and Amſterdam, Raterdam, Arnhem, or New England: But the gathering13 of Paſtours and Elders into Claſſicall Aſſemblies, is made with much conveniency, and withall in a kinde of neceſſitie, becauſe the Churches whom they repreſent cannot poſſibly all of them convene in one place, or if they could, they would be too many to be drawn from their dwellings, too many to be admitted to counſell and cenſure.
Fourthly, Gatherings of Miniſters and Elders into Claſſes, &c. makes much for preſervation of truth and peace in Parochiall congregations, but your gatherings of Churches are, and have proved the meanes to broach e••ours, and breed ſchiſmes.
Fifthly, The gathering of Elders for conſultation and proviſion for the welfare of other particular Churches, as it hath ſure ground of religious reaſon, ſo hath it the honour of moſt ancient and honourable preſcription from the**Bin. Tom. 1. Concil. pag. 2. Excuſ. Pariſ. 1636. fourteenth yeere after the reſurrection of Chriſt, Act. 15. to this day, whereas your gathering of Churches out of Churches in a State, and a time of reformation, is a new device, never practiſed, or approved by the godly in former ages.
Sixthly, The gathering of Miniſters and Elders into Aſſemblies Claſſicall, &c. is authorized by the Parliament, the ſupreame Iudicatory of the Kingdome, whereas your Church gathering is not allowed by authoritie, but taken up without it, and againſt it.
SECT. VI. It is unreaſonable to require an undertaking, that the beſt government in conſtitution ſhould he faultleſſe in execution; tyrannic more to be feared in Independency then in Preſbytery.
Smoke. Pag. 23.BƲt what if ſuch at your ſelfe and ſome other godly meeke of your way may propound nothing but wayes of meekneſſe, can you undertake to ſecure the people for hereafter, and for all, and for the way in its own nature?
Light.It is a moſt unreaſonable thing that you ſhould require ſuch a ſecuritie of thoſe who have the greateſt authoritie in their hands, much leſſe ſhould you looke for it from any private man, Miniſter or other; ſince no government how warrantable ſo ever, if managed by ſinfull man, can be ſecured from all abuſe, either by falling ſhort of dutie, by remiſeneſſe, or overſhooting it by rigour; But Sir any rationall man that knoweth the regular conſtitution of the Presbyteriall Government, and the experimentall execution of it in the Churches where it is eſtabliſhed, may be more bold to undertake for it, both for the government it ſelfe, and for the moſt probable conſequences of it, then any may engage for the way of Independency, and the manifold evill effects and fruits of it, whereof ſee Mr.**c. 3. a p 59, &c. Bayly his Diſſwaſive from errours.
Smoke. Pag. 23.You know Epiſcopacis beganne in meekneſſe, and Biſhops were brought in firſt for good, and for peace, but how proved they? tyranny had ever a countenance of meekneſſe, and love, till it got ſeated on the throne.
Light.Epiſcopacie began at ſuch a time as this wherein we live, and upon occaſion of ſuch an evill as now is much complained of, viz. the turning of Religion into Faction, and it was taken up as a remedy againſt it; but when in ſtead of an Antidote againſt contention, it became an Engine of oppreſſion, by the ſlothfulneſſe of ſome, as well as by the ambition of others, (for if ſome had not beene willing to do too little, others had not been able to uſurpe too much) Presbytery was by the Reformed Churches reſtored, and the preſidencie which before was perpetuall, (for feare of the returne of tyranny) was made ſo mutable, that none might be ambitious of it, or injurious by it. And if tyranny have (as you ſay) a countenance of meekneſſe, and love untill it get to be ſeated on the throne, it may be probable that Independencie is preparing for a tyranny, for it pretends much meekneſſe and love, and if it could prevaile, it is like it would ſoone ſet up the tyranny which15 now it diſclaimeth in others; For the obſervation of Machiavell would in all probability prove true in many of thoſe who meete in Independencie,aaHomines ſubinde magis magiſqueambitioſo•fieri, primo enin•co ſpectare ne ab aliis, opprimantur, poſtea etia••co euiti ut ipſi alios opprimere poſſins. Machiavel. diſp. l. 1. c. 46. p. 188. Men (ſaith he) grow more and more ambitious, for firſt, they ſee to themſelves that they be not oppreſſed, but afterwards their endeavours are to oppreſſe others; So it was with the Anabaptiſts in Germanie, and ſo it would be in many of the ſame ſpirit, eſpecially ſuch as are hardened by the warres in all kinds and degrees of inhumane hoſtility; and if we may judge of their ſpirit by the ſpightfull, diſdainfull, and wrathfull writings, and threats, and facts of many of them who ſort themſelves under Independency, and their oppoſites under the name of Popiſh, Antichriſtian, and prophane, we can expect no moderation or mercy from them, if their might were matchable to their Malignity.
SECT. VII. Of the power of the Preſbytery for reformation of manners, compared with Prelacy; the evill effects of Independencie; the difference betwixt a diſcipline; and the diſcipline, Mr. Saltm. his precipitancie in writing, and in divulging what he hath written of Popery in the Covenant, or under the Covenant.
Smoke. Pag. 24.LOoke into other Reformed Kingdomes, and ſee what power of godlineſſe is there by reaſon of it; doe we not ſee huge bodies of Nations very ſinfull, corrupt, and formall? for Scotland, our Brethrens preaching and watchfulneſſe, it may be more powerfull in a reformation of them then their government; and further I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforms the outward man: Prelacy and Biſhops had a government which was Antichriſtian, yet by an exact execution, &c.
Light.In granting that you doe, I ſhall not need to trouble my ſelfe16 with what you deny; it is enough for the preſent point, which you yeeld, that the Government may much reforme the outward man; and for the inward, you acknowledge preaching and watchfulneſſe may be more powerfull, (as in the Kingdome of Scotland) and ſo doe I; and for that you ſay of the Presbyteriall Government, if it be Antichriſtian, as you ſay, it is not like it ſhould be bleſſed with ſo good ſucceſſe as the Chriſtian Government of the Presbytery; and if that be deficient to reformation (as no power put into the hands of man is every way perfect in any Kingdome) the defects may be referred to ſome other requiſites to ſuch a purpoſe, rather then to Presbytery it ſelfe; but where other Ordinances are not wanting, either in a right rule, or in a regular practice, there Presbyterie formed up to ſuch directions and examples as are found in Scriptures, and the beſt reformed Churches, is a better meanes to make men both Civil and Religions, then any Diſcipline or Government which hath been ordained and obſerved in the Church, ſince Popery and Superſtition were excommunicated out of it.
As for Independency, which is your darling on which you dote, and in zeale unto it, hate the Presbyteriall Government, we ſee by ſad experience that as it hath prevailed, hereſies, ſchiſmes, and all manner of licentious exorbitancies have increaſed, though it have not beene ſet up by Authoritie, but ſuffered by connivences what might be expected from it, if (which God forbid) the ſollicitations and endeavours for it ſhould advance to a toleration of it?
Smoke. Pag. 24.For your other reaſon, that my Texts make againſt not onely the ſuſpending for a time, but for ever, I anſwer: It is true, principles and circumſtances conſidered, for if neither the Government be Chriſts, nor the people Nationally a Church, &c. — how or when can you ſettle it, or what will you ſettle, or upon whom?
Light.For your other reaſon, that my Texts make againſt not onely the ſuſpending for a time, but for ever: Sr. in theſe words (though they be but few) as ſpoken in my name there be two great〈◊〉, for17 they are contrary both to your meaning and mine; to yours, becauſe there is your miſpriſion of one word for another, yea for a contrary, for you ſhould ſay for, and you ſay againſt the ſuſpending, &c. but as to me it may be thought my corruption, for you make me to allow of your Texts, as making for your purpoſe, whereas I ſay,aaMine Exam. and Reſolution. p. 10. For thoſe two Texts which he alledgeth for the deferring of the Government, (and if there be any weight in them as to that purpoſe they make againſt it, not for a time onely, but for ever) I commend to his conſideration, &c. but you leave out the parentheſis, which intimates my minde to be, that thoſe Texts doe not make for your purpoſe. And whereas you demand how, and when can you ſettle it, or what will ye ſettle, or upon whom? theſe are no Queſtions meet to be propounded to me, (who take not upon me to ſettle any government) but to the Parliament, who in part have really anſwered them already, and will doe it I hope more ſpeedily and more fully then you would have them.
Smoke. Pag. 25.I plead for a delay onely in ſetting up a Diſcipline, not the Diſcipline; or more plainly, that the Diſcipline be ſuch that the Covenanters may not violate that Article wherein they are bound to doe every thing according to the Word, and ſo prove unfaithfull in their Covenant, while they are moſt zealous for it.
Light.And the Presbyterians plead not for a Diſcipline in common, but for the Diſcipline in ſpeciall, which is moſt agreeable to the word of God, againſt which they will admit of nothing; and if to it they adde ſomething (wherein the word leaves them to make out by prudence, and exemplary conformity what is of neceſſary practice, and not preſcribed in the Scriptures) they are not to be charged with doing any thing either againſt the Word, or againſt the Covenant.
Smoke. Pag. 25.And for the title of Popery which I put upon ſuch an obedience, which you ſay cannot be, becauſe diſcovered in the next Article of the18 Covenant; I anſwer, the Popery is not in the Covenant, but in the miſinterpretation upon it, and the miſtaken practiſe of it, which is the thing which I onely averre.
Light.This paſſage, as the laſt but one, to which I might adde many more, ſhews your precipitancie in ſending forth your fancies to publique view; you glory in the quick diſpatch of your Pen, and that there may be no delay at the Preſſe, one Printer will not ſerve your turne for your Booke, though of no great bulke, but two at the leaſt muſt be imployed for expedition in it; and when it is Printed, though there be very many and groſſe eſcapes, it muſt not ſtay to be reviſed, that any thing miſtaken by a Catalogue of the Errata may be corrected; ſo all things concur for application of the Proverbe to your Dictates, Feſtinans canis caecos parit catules; and ſo doe you put diſcovered for diſavowed in the next Article; betwixt which words there is ſo great difference, that diſcovered is for your opinion, diſavowed for mine; but you have your diſcovery, and it is of Popery, not in the Covenant, but in the interpretation upon it, and the miſtaken practiſe of it; but whoſe interpretation is this? to me it appeares to be yours, by your next words.
Smoke. Pag. 25.Oh how ſoon may we be Popiſh under a covenant againſt it•I had as great a tythe once as another, but I could not hold it ſo, neither by Covenant, nor Goſpel.
Light.And may we ſoon be Popiſh under a Covenant againſt it? very ſoon; (for ſo much your pathetick interrogation imports) then Sr. comfort your ſelfe, as you are a Patrone of Hereticks and Schiſmaticks, (pleading for indulgency to them, and toleration of them, though you know the Covenant is made expreſly againſt them) for how ſoone may Hereſie and Schiſme increaſe under a Covenant againſt them?
SECT. VIII. Tythes not Jewiſh and Popiſh, as Mr. Saltm. pretendeth.
Smoke. Pag. 25.VVHat are the maintenance of Miniſters by Tythes? Iewiſh and Popiſh undeniably, yet no notice of this at all.
Light.How? Iewiſh and Popiſh undeniably? as undeniably as the Sabbath was Iewiſh when the Prelates ſo called it, or the Doctrine of the Trinity Popiſh as Valentinus Gentilis tooke it when he diſliked the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches in that Article,aaQuod Eccleſia reformatae adhuc in fide Trinitatis cum Papiſtis conveniret Bell. praefat. in libr. de Christo. Tom. 1. ſccund Controverſ. general. p 271. becauſe they agreed with the Papiſts therein. You are groſly miſtaken Sr. in the tenure of Tythes; for though there be a clamour taken up againſt them, by ſuch as make no ſcruple either of ſlander, or of ſacriledge, and ſome would change the Miniſters portion, which is their Maſters wages for his own worke, and reduce them to voluntary penſions of the people, becauſe they would have a liberty to begger them, who will not humour them in their fond, and falſe opinions, and licentious practices, but oppoſe them as of conſcience they are bound to doe, neither you nor all your party can prove them either Iewiſh, or Popiſh, as they are allowed, and received for the maintenance of the Miniſters of England; And becauſe you are ſo confident in your opinion of Mr. Nye, whom with Mr. GoodwinbbSmoke. p. 14. you cite for a worthy ſaying touching the Golden Ball of Government, I refer you for ſatisfaction to him, who will tell you as he hath done divers others, that Miniſters of the Goſpel may hold, and receive Tythes for their maintenance, by a right and title, which is neither Iewiſh nor Popiſh, but truly Chriſtian; and there is nothing Iewiſh or Popiſh in Tythes but the Aſſignation of the decima decimarum from theeeNum. 18.28. Leviticall Prieſts to the high Prieſt, from the high Prieſt to theddIn veterilege primitiae debebantur ſacerdotibus, decima autem Levitis, & quia ſub ſacerdotibus Levitae cram, Dominus mandavi•ut ipſi loco decimarum ſolverent ſummo ſacerdor•decimam decimae: unde nunc cadem ratione tenentur Clerici ſummo pontifici decimam dare ſi exigeret. Aquin. Sum. 22. q. 87. a. 4. ad 3. Soto 9. Juſt. q. 4. art. 4. ad 3. Lorin. in Num. 18. v. 28. p. 687. Pope, and from the Pope to the King; when firſt Pope Ʋrbane gave them to Richard the Second, to aid him againſt Charles the French20 King, and others that upheld Clement the Seventh againſt him, as Polydore VirgileePolyd. Virgil. Hiſt. l. 16. relateth. And King Henry the Eighth taking from the Pope the title of Head of the Church to himſelfe byffAn. 26. Hen. 8. c. 1. Polt. Abri•••. p. 561. Act of Parliament, tooke from him theggIbid. c. 2. p. 565. Tenths, and other profits annexed to that title, which were ſettled upon the Crowne by Statute in the twenty ſixth yeere of Henry the Eighth; ſo that the Iewiſh high Prieſthood being expired, the Papall Lordſhip aboliſhed, the Tythes paid under thoſe Titles may be called Iewiſh and Popiſh, but not that which is aſſigned for the maintenance of Miniſters, becauſe they are yet to doe ſervice to their Maſter, and ſo to receive the maintenance of his allowance for his worke, which fellow ſervants cannot take upon them to take away without preſumption; their doore neighbour will not allow them a power to appoint the wages of their ſervants, much leſſe may they uſurpe upon the Right of God, and his Miniſters, to alienate them from the ſupport of his ſervice and worſhip; for that is rather Popiſh, for the Pope hath tranſlated the Tenure from the Miniſters to the Monaſteries, to Nunneries, and to what purpoſe he thought fit to aſſigne them, and thence came in the tranſlation of titles from the incumbent Miniſters, the making of Leaſes by the Biſhop, Patrone and Incumbent, without ſtint and terme of yeeres to Lay perſons, untill they were reſtrained by thehhSr. Edw. Cooke in the firſt part of the Inſtitut. of the Lawes of England. l. 1. c. 7. Sect. 58. fol. 44. p. 1. State in the 1. of Eliz. 13. ſo that if you have given up your tithes to your Pariſhioners of Braſteed, and told the Committee of Examinations ſo, (as you imply in the paſſage repeated) you are more Popiſh therein then other Miniſters of the Goſpel, who retaine them and officiate to the people that pay them in all the Ordinances of Chriſt, which you refuſe to doe; and as I heare, you have renounced your Ordination to the Miniſtery; if ſo, there is no reaſon you ſhould have them, whether they be lewiſh, Popiſh, or Chriſtian.
You will ſay perhaps I make this plea of the tenure of Tythes for my profit, whereas it would be more for the ſecuritie of my conſcience, and ſupport of my credit againſt the imputation of covetouſneſſe, to give them up as antiquated Coremonies, as you have done; and truly Sr. if I had ever thought them either Iewiſh or Popiſh, I ſhould rather have ſet you an example of reſilling21 them, then (being your Senior, as I am) have ſuffered you to be before me as my patterne for a conſcientious recuſancie of ſuch a revenue; But I never read in any Booke, much leſſe in yours, (wherein in caſe of Tythes you play not the Diſputant, but the Dictator) which could make me ſuſpect them to be Anti-Evangelicall; nor hath any reſpect to advantage made me of a better opinion of their title then yours, ſince I have rejected the offer of thrice as much benefit by Tythes as now I have. And if Tythes were taken away, I am confident I ſhould be no loſer by another allowance; though it may be I may fall under a miſrepreſentation, as if I argued for them as Demetrius for the honour of Diana, when I mind••••ing more then the gaine of Tythes, as he did the gaine of her ſilver Shrines; and I may the rather ſuſpect it from ſome of your ſide, (though not from you) becauſe I find the like charge laid upon Mr. Edw. byiiWhiſp. in the eare of Mr. Tho. Edw. p. 1.2.15. Mr. W.W. in his Whiſper in his care: wh•as he is like Luther in the vigour and freedome of his ſpirit, ſo is he, as Luther ſaid of himſelfe, of all ſinnes the freeſt from covetouſneſſe; and on my knowledge, whereas he hath had the offer of many good Benefices, he reſuſed them, and hath no Tythes at all for his maintenance, but a voluntary penſion, which is not competent for his charge, or paines either in an anſwerable preportion, or a ſeaſonable payment; and yet is he contented with it, minding much more the doing of the worke he undertooke, then the receiving of the wages.
SECT. IX. Of Mr. Colemans obſervation of the Church of Scotland.
Smoke. Pag. 28.TO your other of the bleſſings, and bleſſed fruits in Scotland, th••there is no Hereſie nor Schiſme, l•t Mr. Coleman our learned and pious Brother ſpeake for us both from his experiences.
Light.I〈◊〉by this paſſage you have not read the Booke you pretend22 to anſwer; for Mr. Colemans experience was not of Hereſie, and Schiſme in the Church of Scotland, but (as he gave inſtance) of the Presbyteries uſurpation of the power of baniſhment; and if you meane Mr. Colemans charge for that, (as I ſuppoſe you doe) you might have taken notice of an Anſwer to it in the ſeventh Section of mine Examination of your New Quere, p. 21. which, though it were in part but conjecturall, is confirmed by a more certain Anſwer of the Reverend Commiſſioner Mr. **Mr. Gillespie his Nihil Reſpondes. p. 24. Gillespie in theſe words, What from Scotland? I my ſelfe (ſaith Mr. Coleman) did heare the Preſbyterie of Edinborough cenſure a woman to be baniſhed out of the gates of the City; was not this an incroachment? It had beene an incroachment indeed if it had been ſo. But he will excuſe me if I anſwer him in his owne Language (which I uſe not) p. 3. & 5. It is at the beſt a moſt uncharitable ſlander, and there was either ignorance or mindleſneſſe in him that ſets it downe.
There is no baniſhment in Scotland but by the Civill Magiſtrate, who ſo farre aydeth and aſſiſteth Church Diſcipline, that prefane and ſcandalous perſons, when they are found unruly and incorrigible, are puniſhed with baniſhment, or otherwiſe. A ſtranger coming at a time into one of our Preſbyteries, and hearing of ſomewhat which was repreſented to, or reported from the Magiſtrate, ought to have ſo much circumspection and charitie as not to make ſuch a raſh and untrue report. He might have at leaſt inquired when he was in Scotland, and informed himſelfe better, whether Preſbytery or the Civill Magiſtrate doe baniſh. If he made no ſuch inquirie, he was raſh in judging: if he did, his offence is greater, when after information he will not underſtand. And if you put your cauſe to the arbitration of Mr. Coleman, you will find cauſe by the ſentence to conceive him to be no more an Independent, then we have to take him to be a Presbyterian; and I ſuppoſe I may ſay he is more ours then yours, ſince he hath put himſelfe into the Aſſociation of a Claſſicall Aſſembly, in the Province of London; howſoever whether he prove a Participle, or a Neuter, I know you will not be concluded by his either opinion, or practiſe, no more ſhall we.
SECT. X. A Compariſon of young men and old, for prudence and counſell. Of viſions and dreames, where the ſecond of Ioel verſ. 28. and Act. 2.17. are vindicated from Mr. Saltm. his miſtaking and miſapplication of them.
Smoke. Pag. 29.To that of Iob — which you apply in way of reproach to the younger, whom you call as it were greene heads, &c. Smoke. p.. 29.
Light.In ſtead of acknowledgement of your miſapplication of Iob 32. verſ. 6, 7. where with I charge you, Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke, you lay a charge upon me, for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads. That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both, I will ſet down firſt my words to you, then yours to me; my words are theſe.
For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned, which are taken out of Iob 32. verſ. 6, 7. Why doe not dayes ſpeake, and multitude of yeares teach knowledge? they make nothing for his purpoſe; for the meaning of them is not, that Government, or Diſcipline, or any other uſefull thing ſhould not be with all convenient ſpeed eſtabliſhed, but that the ancient with whom is wiſdome, Iob 12.12. the gray-headed and very aged men, Chap. 15.10. who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres, ſhould be heard, and heeded in matters of adviſe, and conſultation, before ſuch green-headed Counſellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine, 1 Kings 12.13, 14.
Smoke. Pag. 29.And your Anſwer to them is, The elder I eſteeme as Fathers, and the younger we know are ſuch in whom the Lord ſpeakes more gloriouſly, as he himſelfe ſaith, Your young men ſhall ſee viſions, and upon your ſonnes and daughters will I powre out my ſpirit, your old men ſhall dreame deames. Now whether is it more excellent to dreame24 dreames, or to ſee viſions? The Lord delivered Iſrael by the young men of the Provinces; Surely we may more ſafely hearken to the younger that ſee viſions of reformation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely.
Light.I ſpake no more either in praiſe of old men, or diſparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in queſtion betwixt us, yet thence you have taken occaſion to magnifie young men, and to vilifie the old, alleadging the ſaying of the Prophet Ioel, Your old men ſhall dreame dreames, and your young men ſhall ſee viſions, and thereupon demanding, whether is more excellent to dreame dreames, or to ſee viſions: you reſolve the Queſtion your ſelfe thus; Surely, we may more ſafely hearken to the younger that ſee viſions of Reformation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely.
And doe all, or onely, or moſt young men ſee viſions of Reformation? and all, or onely, or moſt old men but dreame dreames of it? If there be not ſuch an Antitheſis betwixt them, your comparative theſis is an errour of youth, a ſlander of age, and I ſhall not doubt, if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell, with the old mans crutch (bring what weapons you will or can) to beat you out of the field, or at leaſt to give you the foyle.
But beſides your diſparagement of old men, I have ſome what to ſay to you for miſtaking and miſapplying the words of the Prophet, Ioel 2.28. brought in by the Apeſtle, Act. 2.17. firſt, for the defence of old men; you make as if it were ſafer to hearken to young men then to them, as if the young men were wiſer counſellours then the old.
I grant before-hand that ſometimes there may be young men, (as Ioſeph, Daniel, and Samuel,) who may have a ſpirit of wiſdome, and thereby may be fit to give counſell, and to governe the wayes of the aged; but ſetting aſide ſingular and extraordinary examples, compare age & youth in the generall, and the reſolution of reaſon and example will be, that old men are fitter to direct and guide the young, then contrariwiſe; for in old men the paſſions and perturbations of the minde (which give great impediment to prudence, (for they are to reaſon as fumes and vapours about a25 candle, which dimme the light thereof) are more ſubdued then in young men. Beſides experience (which is both the parent of wiſdome, of which it is begotten, and the nurſe which bringeth it on to a further growth and proficiency) falls not within the fathome of a young mans reach, but of the old man; hence is it that Solomon ſaith; The hoary head is a•rowne of glory if it be found in the way of righteouſneſſe, Prov. 16.31. and that by the law, the younger ſort were to riſe up before the hoary head, and to honour the face of the old man, Levit. 19.32. For with the ancient is wiſdome, and in length of dayes underſtanding, Iob 12.12.
And hence it is, that the Counſellours and Governours of Common-weales, are called Senators, and their Aſſembly**Senatus nomen dedit aetas, nam i•dem. patres ſunt. Quintil. Inſtit orat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 38. Senatus, from age: and in the old Teſtament they are called the Elders of Iſrael, and in the New thoſe whoſe function requireth of them a wiſdome of the beſt kinde, and higheſt degree, (for it muſt be ſuch a wiſdome as muſt goe beyond his ſubtiltie who deceiveth all the world, Rev. 12.6.9. ) are called Preſbyters, a word in Greeke of the ſame ſignification with Elders in Engliſh. And for example you cannot be forgetfull of the Story of R•h•boams old and young Counſellours, 1 King. 12. nor what prelation is given to the old above the young in that Story; and while you remember it, you ſhould not ſway the preeminence on the young mens ſide againſt the old men, as you have done.
Beſides the Scriptures, there be manifold inſtances againſt your fence in the difference of age and youth, I will minde you of ſome, as that ofaaTuum eſt undecunqueevocare & aſcribere tibi (exemple Moſis) ſenes, non juvenes Ber. de Conſ. lib. 4. cap. 4. col. 886. Bernard counſelling Eugenius to call to him Counſellours (as Moſes did) that were old men, not young men; and of the Lacedemonians, of whombbApud Lacedaemonies ii qui ampliſſimuns magiſtratum gerunt, ut ſunt, ſic etiam appellantur ſenes. Cicer. Cat•. Major. ſeu de Senect. Tom. 3. •p•rum Cicer. pag. 408. in fol. Cicero ſaith, that they who are the chiefe Magiſtrates, whoſe authoritie is of moſt ample extent, as they are, ſo they are called old men.
And among the Romans aged prudence was ſo much honoured, thatcVt quiſqueatate antecellit, ita ſententia principatum abtine•. Ibid. pag. 415. in the Colledge of Sages, Sentences were partly valued by ſenioritie. And there is good ground for this great eſtimation of old men,dMaximas Respub. per adoleſcentes labefast•s, à ſenibus ſuſte••ates & reſti••as reperiatis. Ibid. p. 408. for great Common-weales, as he ſheweth, which have26 been ruined by young men, have been repaired and reſtored by old men. Such as Ageſilaus was, whom (though among the vulgar Egyptians, (when he came into their Countrey, and they ſaw no ſtately traine about him, but an old gray beard laid on the graſſe by the ſeaſide,) a little man that looked ſimply on the matter, in a thread bare gowne fell a laughing at him) yet the chiefe Captaines and Governours of King Tachis honourably received, and were marvellouſly deſirous to ſee him, for the great fame that went abroad of him and he was famous for his wiſdome both Military and Civill, asccPlutarch. in Ageſil. pag. 629.630. Plutarch reporteth in the Story of his life. To him I could adde many examples of later time, and neerer home; I will name only one, and that is my Reverend brotherffSee his booke de Diphthongis aut Bivocatibus. Mr. Tho. Gataker, who though he have been an old man a great while, hath given (of late ſince his ſickneſſe, and ſeceſſion from the Aſſembly) ſuch a ſpecimen of a pregnant apprehenſion and faithfull memory, as may aſſure a judicious Reader, that albeit his body be weake, his braine is not ſo; though his head have been long gray, his wit is yet greene and flouriſhing.
Secondly, Now for mine other exception againſt your compariſon; In it you not onely give preeminence to young men before old, but preferre them in this, that young men ſee viſions of reformation, and old men dreame dreames of it onely; wherein you wrap up three particulars, which you take for granted, but it will be an harder taske then you imagine to prove any one of them.
Firſt, That Revelations by viſions are more excellent then thoſe that come by dreames.
Secondly, That viſions aſcribed to young men are denied to old men.
Thirdly, That young men have viſions of reformation, old men onely dreame of it; whereas
Firſt,ggDuo Revelationum modi, per ſomnium ſcilicet & per viſionem imaginariam vigilanti objectam, non ſe ſuperant mutuo ratione excellentioris potentiae vel praeſtantioris modi cognoſcendi, cum uterqueperficiatur in imaginativa. Jacob. Bonfrer. in Numb. 12.6. pag. 78•. col. 1. ſome learned men have reſolved that viſions are not more excellent then dreames, and the reaſons may be; Firſt, becauſe in Scripture they are brought in as Revelations, though different, yet without prelation of the one before the other, as Numb. 12. If there be a Prophet among you, I the Lord will make my ſelfe known unto him in a viſion, and ſpeake unto him in a dreame, Num. 12.6. 27Secondly, as great matters are repreſented in dreames as in viſions, as the affliction of the children of Iſrael in Egypt, and their deliverance was revealed to Abraham in a dreame, Gen. 15.12. and the intercourſe betwixt heaven and earth, in the miniſtery of Angels was repreſented to Jacob in a dreame, Gen. 28.12. It was in a dreame that Solomon had the ſingular wiſdome imparted to him, 1 King. 3.5. By a dreame was the conception of Ieſus Chriſt by the Holy Ghoſt revealed to Ioſeph, Matth. 1.20. and the plot of perdition againſt him, with the way to prevent it, Matt. 2.13.
Thirdly, as for the matter, ſo for the manner, Revelation by a dreame is as cleare, and as ſure as by a viſion; as in that of Abraham, of Iacob, of Solomon, of Ioſeph forementioned; to which we may adde that of Abimelech, Gen. 20.3. and out of humane Authours; the dreame ofhhHieron. Epiſt. ad Euſtoch. de cuſtod. Virg. Tom. 1. p. 146. 147. Hierome, wherein he was brought before the Tribunall of Chriſt, and denied to be a Chriſtian, becauſe he was too much a Ciceronian, and was adjudged to bee ſcourged, and was ſo, and in the morning he found his ſhoulders blew with his beating; and the dreame ofiiHospinian. in Hiſt. Sacram. part. alt. fol. 26. & Rivet. Exercit. in Gen. 28. Exercit. 123. p. 603. Zuinglius againſt the Maſſo, had an evidence of the matter very cleare (though for the Authour he was uncertain.)
But we may ſay further that dreames have an excellency above viſions, and the reaſon is this: That which hath more of God, and leſſe of man, is more excellent then that which contrariwiſe hath more of man and leſſe of God: now in dreames there is more of God, and leſſe of man; becauſe in ſleepe the ſenſes are bound up, and ſo there is more communion betwixt the ſpirit of God, and the ſoule of man, and leſſe interruption in that communion then to men awake; ſo that in dreames there is no diſturbing of the Revelation by the concurrence of ſenſuall objects, no denying or ſuſpending of aſſent by examination of reaſon, as Dr. kkRivet. ubi ſupra.Rivet well obſerveth. And the reaſon is ratified by naturall Philoſophy, for the minde (ſaithllViget animus in ſomniis, liberqueſenſibus ab omn•impeditione curarum jacente et mortuo paene corpore. Cicer. de Divinat. lib. 1. pag. 274. Cicere) in dreames is vigorous, being free from ſenſes, and from all interruption of cares, the body, the while being in a manner dead. And elſewhere hemDormientium animi maxime declarant divinitatem ſuam, multa enim cum remiſſi & liberi ſint futura prospiciunt, ex que intelligitur quaeles futuri ſint cum ſe plane corporis vinculis relaxaverint. Cicer. de Senect. p. 417. ſaith, that the minds28 of men aſleepe declare their divinitie, for when they are relaxed and free, they foreſee many future things, whence it may be gathered what they will be hereafter, when they are wholly releaſed from bonds of the body.
The ſecond Particular which your comparative ſpeech implyeth is, that viſions aſcribed to young men are denied to old men; whereas old men have their viſions as well as young; as John the Evangeliſt though he were young when he came firſt to be a Diſciple of his and our great Maſter, had his Revelations by viſion in the Iſle of Pathmus when he was old, viz. in the 96. yeer of Chriſt, which muſt be at leaſt the 80. yeere of Johns age, if we ſuppoſe him to be but 14. yeeres old at the entrance of his attendance on him, and younger we cannot reaſonably imagine him to have been at that time.
A third thing which in your compariſon of young men and old for viſions and dreames. I may not admit of, is, that you bring it to the matter of reformation, and make it as if the young men had ſeent a viſion, and that old men had but ſome darke notions of it, like unto a nightly dreame; which is ſo preſumptuous and groundleſſe a conceit that your moſt waking thoughts cannot make it ſeeme otherwiſe to any ſound underſtanding, then a vapour of a young mans bragge, or the vanity of a ſick mans dreame.
SECT. XI. Mr. Saltm. his inſufficient anſwer and figurative trifting unworthy of an Anſwer.
Smoke. Pag. 29.FOr that of the converſion from Paganiſme to Chriſtianitie, there is no ſuch disproportion, &c.
Light.If the indifferent Reader will turne to the place, pag. 15. of my Booke, he ſhall perceive your Anſwer to my Text (which you29 doe not faithfully repeat) is very inſufficient, and if he read your words firſt, and mine after, he will take them for a confutation of yours, not yours for a confutation of mine; and the like hath been ſaid by a judicious Reader for a great part of your Reply.
Smoke. Pag. 30.But we are ſpeaking of the ſpirituall building or Church here, which is the image of the Church above; and as that is of true, reall, eſſentially ſpirituall living ſtones, ſo the Church below is to conſiſt at leaſt of ſuch as viſibly and formally appeare ſo.
Light.In this and many other paſſages of your Booke you are rather typicall in repreſentation, then topicall in proofe; you follow your Allegory ſo farre, that to follow you therein is rather to dally then to diſpute; Beſides, the reſult of your exception either cloſeth with my ſence, or ſtrayeth from the queſtion in difference betwixt us; and if in ſuch particulars I do not trace your ſteps, think not I could not anſwer you, but that I would not trouble my ſelfe, nor tire the Reader with trifling impertinencie.
SECT. XII. A compariſon of Preſbyterians and Independents in point of ſtrictneſſe and looſeneſſe in admiſſion of members; of the mixture in the Church of Corinth.
Smoke. Pag. 32.LEt the doores of our Churches be as ſtrait as you imply, I am ſure your doores are ſet open, or rather caſt off the hinges.
Light.That the doores of our Churches are no ſtraiter may be partly imputed to ſome of your party, who have no minde of ſuch a through reformation as would deprive them of an opportunity30 and occaſion of gathering of Churches; which could have no pretence, if the Reformation were wrought up to ſuch a pitch as the Presbyterians deſire.
And if our doores be ſet too open, or caſt off the hinges, it is in permitting Independents ſuch a libertie of Lecturing in our Churches, to preach againſt Presbytery, as they would never yeeld to Presbyterians, were it in their power to prohibit them.
But Sr. I beleeve, in ſome reſpects neither commendable, nor warrantable, your doores are more open then ours, your hinges more looſe then ours, your walles much more wide, or rather you have neither doores, nor hinges, nor walles to bound your memberſhip; for if you had, how could people of London, Holland, New England, be members of the ſame particular Church, as before hath beene objected unto you? but this is not cardo controverſiae betwixt you and me.
Smoke. Pag. 32.To that of your challenge that I ſhould ſhew any ſuch example in the New Teſtament, of taking out the beſt when there was a mixture of holy and profane; I anſwer: Theſe were Gospel Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel fellowſhip, and when you make your Pariſhes to appeare ſuch Churches, then I ſhall tell you more, till then I ſhall ſuspend your challenge.
Light.By this Reply I ſee (though you take time to anſwer a challenge) you will rather foile your ſelfe, then ſeeme to be foiled by your Antagoniſt; for if Goſpel Churches, gathered by the Word and Spirit into Goſpel fellowſhip, as you ſtate the caſe, may conſiſt of ſuch godly and ungodly members, as were in the Church of Corinth, 1 Cor. 11.21. then for all your pretence of your Goſpel way you have no warrant for ſuch a ſeparation as you take upon you to make. Beſides, Sr. the ſeparation of people is not to be varied in regard of the Church way of gathering into fellowſhip, which is extrinſecall, but in regard of the difference of perſons as they are holy or profane; but with you, it ſeemes, if the manner of gathering be ſuch as you call a Goſpel way, it matters not31 much whether the matter of the Church be holy or unholy; and indeed, though you exclude from coming into your Churches ſome kind of wicked ones, you admit of thoſe whom without repentance God will never account of the communion of Saints, ſuch as are notoriouſly covetous, proud, ſlanderous, and malicious, who have no more viſible intereſt in Chriſt then a fornicator, or drunkard, a ſwearer, or Sabbath-breaker.
SECT. XIII. To whom Chriſt is an Head, and how; of his rod of Iron and his Golden Scepter, and of his being a Lord and a ſervant; gentle, yet terrible.
Smoke. Pag. 34.IT is true, Chriſt is an head, but he is not an head to every body, he will have a body proportionable to his head; is a Nation of all ſorts a fit body for ſuch an head? is he not a pure, holy, and glorious head in his Goſpel dispenſation? and is a body ſo leprous, ſo wicked, ſo formall, ſo traditionally, and Antichriſtianly corrupted a fit body? Shall I take the members of my body, ſaith Paul, and joyne them to an barlot to make one fleſh? God forbid; what then ſhall the head doe with ſuch members?
Light.It is true, Chriſt is an head, and not an head to every body, but is he not an head to his owne integrall members, becauſe the wicked mingle with them in an outward profeſſion? have hypocrites any more conſanguinity with the pure blood of Chriſt then profane perſons have? yet Chriſt is head of that Church where reprobates are reputed to bee members; and are there not ſome branches of the Vine which beare no fruit, and are to be taken away? Joh. 15.2. who cannot for all that hinder the vitall influence into other branches, as in the example of the Church of Corinth.
And for that you ſay of a body ſo leprous, ſo wicked; as applied32 to our Reformation in furi, or in facte, it is very falſly reprod chfull, and ſavours of ungratitude to God, and of Phariſaicall diſdaine of purer Churches then thoſe you ſtand for; wherein you groſly digreſſe from the moderation whereto you protend.
Smoke. Pag. 34.To that of his ruling with a rod of iron as well as a golden Se•p•er, I anſwer.
And doth he rule any in his Church with his rod of iron, who were not called in firſt by his golden Scepter?
And for that of his iron rod in Pſal. 2. it is ſpoken of Chriſt not as King of his Church, but of the Nations.
Light.By this Anſwer you ſeeme to forget your owne Argument, which was to prove an unſutableneſſe of the Presbyteriall Government to the Perſon of Chriſt; and when I have ſhewed that the Perſon of Chriſt is not onely amiable as a Saviour, but formidable to offenders as a Lord, having an iron Rod, as well as a golden Seepter, you ſay by way of diſtinction that he hath his iron ſcepter as King of the Nations, not as King of the Church; but if his Church conſiſt of golden Saints and gilded Hypocrites, (for you ſay it conſiſts at leaſt**Smoke. p. 31. of ſuch as viſibly and formally appeare ſo, and hypocrites appeare ſo, and the appearance of Saintſhip is the moſt that is in them) he hath and uſeth an iron rod to drive away, and to cruſh, as well as a golden Scepter to invite and call to his preſence; for were not Ananias and Saphira members of the Church after a Goſpel diſpenſation? and were they not ruined as well as ruled, when they were both of them ſuddenly ſmitten dead for their hypocriticall profeſſion? what could an iron rod have done more, if they had taken up heatheniſh hoſtilitie againſt the Church? and was not this exemplary puniſhment laid upon them that the Church might feare Chriſt as a Lord, as well as love him as a Saviour of his Church, that they might feare his iron rod, as well as love his golden Scepter? ſure I am it wrought that effect upon Chriſtians in generall, for feare came upon all the Church, and upon at many as heard theſe things, Act. 5.11.
33Smoke. Pag. 34.For your other Texts of Chriſts being a ſervant and a Lord, a Lambe and terrible, you onely prove what I grant, that he is more a King and a Lordin his Government, then in any other of his Goſpel dispenſations.
Light.In this particular you give me occaſion to returne a piece of your owne Rhetorick upon you, and to call you as you doe me,**Pag. 17. a faire enemy, for you repeat my proofes ſo fully here (though elſe-where you miſerably maime and mangle them) that you may be thought to have done as Bellarmine is ſaid to doe in his Controverſies, viz. to bring in more of the Proteſtants Objections then he is able to anſwer; But when you ſay that I prove onely what you grant, that he is more a King and Lord in his Government, then in any other of his Goſpel dispenſations; you invert the order of the words you ſhould obſerve; for you ſhould have rather ſaid, You now grant what I have proved, for I never knew ſo much of your mind in this matter before; and you grant ſo much as might have ſpared a great part of your Reply to me; for the Lordſhip of his Government was the matter in queſtion, and that being granted by you, the Presbyteriall Government is not ſo inconſiſtent or unſutable with the condition of Chriſts deſcription of himſelfe as you would make it.
SECT. XIV. The Preſbyteriall Government not unſutable to the condition of Chriſt; the prevailing of Independents, and of the Sects that meet in Independencie, much more terrible then the Preſbyteriall Government can be.
Smoke. Pag. 34, 35.BƲt all this will not prove the Lordſhip of ſuch a Preſbytery or Government; cert ainely you intend a terrible government, becauſe34 you bring in theſe Texts that have judgement and ſeveritie in them, which Chriſt threatens to the Nations and Kings of the earth and not to his Churches; will you make Chriſt rule in his Church as he doth in the World? well, let your Preſbytery enjoy the iron ſcepter, while the Churches of Chriſt enjoy the golden, and try if you ruine not more then you rule.
Light.Theſe proofes were not brought to prove a Presbyterial Government, but dato ſed non conceſſo, that it was ſevere, it was not ſounſutable to the condition of Chriſt as you pretended. And for that you ſay, certainly you intend a terrible Government, though you ſpeake to me, you doe not meane it of me, for you have ſaid**Smoke, p. 23. before, What if ſuch as your ſelfe, and ſome other godly meeke of your way propound nothing but wayes of meekneſſe to your ſelves, can you undertake, &c. whereby you ſeeme to acquit me from the accuſation of ſuch rigour as you ſuſpect in others; and if that be your meaning, you are not miſtaken in my ſpirit, for if I know any thing of it, it is farre from that height of heat againſt any oppoſers whatſoever which was in the Diſciples of our Saviour againſt the Samaritans, when they received him not, Luk. 9.54.
And I confeſſe, in the preſence of God who knoweth the hearts of all men, that if a ſpirit of meekneſſe, and ſweetneſſe, and of all affectionate and faire inſinuations would prevaile with the moſt perverſe and blaſphemous heretique to winne him to be cordially Chriſts, I could wiſh the golden Scepter held out to invite him into the communion of the Church, rather then the iron rod to bruiſe, or breake, or to affright him from the Church. And though you meane this of others, who ſhew themſelves Zealots for the Presbyteriall Government, you are too inconſiderate, too uncharitable, too confident in your charge; for how can you be ſo certain as you make your ſelfe, when the thing they move for hath no terrour in it; It is true, that according to the French Proverbe, He that would have his neighbours dog hang'd gives out that he is mad; ſo your party that would have the Presbyteriall Government literally ſuſpended, and made away as a mad dog, as if it would (as Paul was before his converſion) be mad againſt the35 Saints, Act. 26.11. and breathe out nothing but threatnings and ſlaughters againſt them, Act. 9.1. give out that it is an intolerable Tyranny, and ten times worſe then the Prelaticall Domination: When indeed if men will lay aſide all prejudice, partiality, and paſſion, they ſhall finde the ſpirit of Independencie more terrible then that of Presbyterie. For,
Firſt, that which is ſo much ſtuck at as an incroachment upon Chriſtian liberty, and a meanes of the Miniſters domineering over the people, the ſuſpenſiō from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, are not the Independents more rigid then the Preſbyterians are? for they generally ſuſpend whole Pariſhes from the Sacrament (except ſome few of their covenanted diſciples) for divers yeers together, without any law or rule at all; the Preſbyterians generally doe not ſo; or if ſome doe forbeare communions for a time, it is not upon ſuch principles as the Independents maintaine; and they doe all they can to expedite the removall of all ſcandals from the Sacrament, wherein the Independents refuſe to joyne with them.
Secondly, the Independents deny not onely the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, as hath been ſaid, but they deny the Sacrament of Baptiſme to all ſuch as are not the children of their covenanted members; the Preſbyterians accept of them for a federall holineſſe profeſſed by their parents; and if there were no more but theſe two differences betwixt them, it were enough (if men would not give up themſelves to be groſly befooled by flattery and calumny) to cry out upon the Independents for their injurious invaſions upon Chriſtian libertie, and to love the Preſbyterians for their mildneſſe and charitie in theſe particulars: but further,
Thirdly, The Independents Government (though to ſpeake properly, Independency is rather Anarchy then Government) is more terrible then the Preſbyterian; becauſe under it are united all ſorts of ſectaries, among whom many are of furious ſpirits, men of blood and Belial, and ſuch as have made many bloody maſſacres in Germany, and have threatned if otherwiſe they may not have their will, (their libertie they call it) that they will have it by the ſword; for have they not an Independent armie to force their way againſt the Presbyterians? I quoted to this purpoſe Mr. 36Prinnes freſh Diſcovery, and Dr. Baſtw. Preface to his ſecond part of Independency, but I quoted not their words, now I will, became ſince Mr. Edw. put forth his laſt Booke, ſome of that ſect have ſpoken bloody words againſt his perſon; and (though he be ſo confident in the goodneſſe of his cauſe, and the integrity of his intentions, that he beleeves he ſhould leſſe feare to be killed, then any to kill him) yet ſince I finde the Independents deale with the Preſbyterians as Ahab did with Elijah, charging him with his own fault, 1 King. 18.17. and that like the beaſt in the Revelation, they ſpeake like a dragon, Revel. 13.11. and are horned rather like a ramme then a lambe, I thinke it fit that their ſpirit be better known, that they may be leſſe truſted; eſpecially, where they pretend more meekneſſe then they finde among Preſbyterians; their words are theſe,
Two Predicant Captaines apprehended, and queſtioned for preaching in Newport Pannell againſt the Ordinance of Parliament of the 26. of April, 1645. among other ſpeeches averred,aaMr. Prinnes Epiſt. Dedic. before his Freſh Diſcovery of ſome prodigious new wandring blazingſtarres and firebrand. fol. 3. p. a. That if the godly and well affected party were thus perſecuted, they ſhould be forced to make a worſe breach then what was yet, when they had done with the Kings party; telling one Enſigne Ratford and his Souldiers that they were worſe then Cavaliers; and that when they had made an end of the warre with the Cavaliers, they ſhould be forced to raiſe a new Army to fight with them. And in Dr.bbDr. Baſtw. his ſecond part of Independency not Gods Ordinance, in the Preface. fol. 14. p. b. & fol. 15. p. a. Baſtwicks Preface to his ſecond part of his Independency not Gods Ordinance, he ſaith thus; Among thoſe they thinke they may confide in, they affirme they will not be beholding to the Parliament nor any body elſe for their libertia, for they will have it, and aske them no leave; they have the ſword now in their hand, and they thinke their partie ſtrong enough to encounter any adverſe and oppoſing partie; and they profeſſe they care not how ſoone they come to outting of throats, and ſpeake of nothing but the ſlaughtering and butchering of the Preſbyterians.
And though I confeſſe there may be many Independents (and ſome I know to be ſuch as your ſelfe) of a meeke and gentle diſpoſition, yet as Peter Du Moulin ſaid of many of the Prieſts in France, that they were for their loyaltis not beholding to the maxim••of Italy, ſo I ſay, for their mookneſſe they are not beholding37 to the Principles of Independency; for where they moſt prevaile they puffe men up in pride, ſelfe-conceipt, and diſdaine of their Chriſtian brethren, though in gifts and graces farre better then themſelves, many of them being Anabaptiſts, and of the ſpirit of that inſ•lent hereticke, who, whenccCum ego humaniter pro liuguae mea more cum compellarem, nunquam aliter dignatus eſt mecu loqui, quam ſi cum cane ſibi negotium fuiſſet. Cum introductus fuiſſet in Curiam, voluit primo Syndico aſſidere; inde repulſus, caput oculoſquetorquendo, Propheticam Majeſtatem ſimulans, &c. Calvin. Epiſt. Farello, p. 62. Calvin had conference with him, and entertained him with termes of humanitie, vouchſafed him none other language then if Calvin had been no better then a dogge; and he ſhewed the arrogancy of his minde by his carriage, and behaviour, as well as by his words, offering to ſit next to the prime Syndick of the Senate of Geneva, and upon the repulſe, by the motion of his head, and eyes, ſignifying great weath, he tooke upon him a Propheticall Majeſtie. And albeit ſome take it for a proofe of the goodneſſe of their cauſe, that they have engaged many great and rich men in it, which makes them, as is trulyddMr. Baylie his Diſſwaſive from Errours. cap. 3. pag. 53. obſerved, Though the ſmalleſt of all the ſects of the time for their number, yet the greateſt for worth of their followers, yet that in a true Chriſtian conſideration makes rather againſt it; for by getting ſo many rich and great men unto their partie, and ayming ſo much at ſuch diſciples (with ſuch neglect of others as is obſerved) ſhewes that they are not minded as the Apoſtle was, when he ſaid to the Corinthians; I ſeeke not yours but you, 2 Cor. 12.14. but rather contrariwiſe; ſo that if they would ſay, what many by their actions ſpeake, they ſhould tell their converts; I ſeeke not you but yours, or rather yours then you. And ſecondly, when rich and great men embrace Independency, it may give great cauſe of ſuſpition that they doe it, becauſe, as rich, they are apt to be high-minded, 1 Tim. 6.17. and all high-minded men are the moſt legitimate ſonnes of lapſed Adam, who would be Independent upon God, and be a God of himſelfe, and ſo they are apt to take up Independency, rather out of an humour of pride, then out of conſcience towards either pictie, or truth.
Fourthly, It is apparent to all how ambitious many Independents are of all places of honour, of power, and profit, of being Members in the Parliament, prime Officers in the Armie, Committee men; and if any croſſe them, what wayes they finde out to be meet with them, ſending them tickets, and calling them in queſtion, when they know there is no juſt cauſe of exception38 againſt them, of purpoſe to caſt an awe upon all men, as if the authoritie of the State were at their ſervice, to ſecure their credits againſt all complaints how juſt ſo ever, and to diſcountenance thoſe who in an ingenuous and generous ſpirit oppoſe their uſurpations, which are now ſo viſible to the view of all that are not wilfully blind, that it is matter of great wonder, that the Presbyterians (who are more in number, and dignitie, then any ſect whatſoever, and if they were as active as they, might much overtop them in power) are ſo dull and indulgent towards them, as to ſuffer them ſtill to carry on their deſigne as they doe; which in ſome Presbyterians for the time paſt may be imputed to their patience, and meekneſſe of minde, being loth to offend ſuch; but if it ſhould be ſo generall hereafter as it hath been, it might be aſcribed to a negligence, and coldneſſe in that cauſe which they ſhould endeavour to promote with all their might in all warrantable wayes of zeale, of induſtry, circumſpection, and prudence.
Fifthly, Though you aſſigne the iron Scepter to the Presbytery, the golden to your Churches, the truth is, if the Independents were once as Independent as they would be, they would be Maſters of both metals, both gold and iron; and ſome of their party bragge they have both the purſe and the ſword in their power; if ſo, (and in ſuch a degree as they would have it, but it is true but in part, though too much) they that now renounce appeales to Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Aſſemblies, would appeale to the ſword, and then they would be ready to ruine thoſe that would not be ruled by them, to breake thoſe that would not bow unto them.
Sixthly, You cannot finde any thing in the Presbyterians principles, nor in their practice, as they are Presbyterians, which may be matter, I ſay not of conviction, but of ſuſpition of ſuch a terrible government, as you take upon you, with ſo much confidence, to charge upon them.
SECT. XV. A pleaſant reproofe of a miſapplication of Scripture is no offence, againſt the maieſtie of the word; how, and in what caſes a taunting ſpeech may be allowed.
Smoke. Pag. 35.I Wonder that one of your experience in the majeſtie of the word ſhould be ſo pleaſant with a Scripture allegory.
Light.Here you impute unto me that, which (if truly objected) would require a penitentiall confeſſion on my part; if untruly, no leſſe on yours; that it may be more manifeſt, it will be meet to take notice how my words come in upon yours, and yours upon mine. Vpon your miſapplication of Matth. 9.17. Neither doe men put new wine into old bottles, myaaMine Examination. p. 20. words are theſe. Conceiving the Penner to be a ſober man, I muſt thinke in this paſſage the Printers braine was troubled with the fume of new wine, to conclude with non-ſence for a rationall conſequence; and I beleeve no new wine and old bottles, how new or old ſo ever, can worſe agree together, then the foregoing evidence and the finall ſentence of this paragraph. Vpon my words your Comment is,
Smoke. Pag. 35.Becauſe the Scripture is of wine, you jeſt on it, as if it had made the ſence leſſe ſober. I am ſorry my younger pen ſhould reprove the aged for ieſting, which the Apoſtle ſaith is not convenient. And truly it is not comely for the ſervants to play upon the maſter of the Feaſt, or any thing in his houſe, eſpecially upon his wine, which alludes ſo to his blood, and which he hath promiſed to drinke with us new in his Fathers Kingdome.
Light.To which I anſwer; Firſt, That the Apoſtle, Eph. 5.4. forbidding jeſting under that word, which in Morall Philoſophy is the title of a vertue, doth not forbid all kinde of jeſts, towards all40 perſons, and in all caſes; for what was the Irony of God to Adam, Gen. 3.22. and of Elijah to the Prieſts of Baal, 1 King. 18.27. but a jeſting reproofe?
Secondly, There is a great difference betwixt jeſting at Scripture, and at a miſapplication of Scripture; this may be taunted without any reliſh of irreverence at all to the other; for example, a man may give all religious reſpect due to the words of our Saviour, Ioh. 21.16. Feed my ſheep, but whenbbBellarm. Tom. 1. lib. 3. cap. 1. de Verbo Dei. p. 184 & 185. Bellarmine abuſeth them, by wreſting them and inferring from them the proofe of the Supremacy of the Pope over the univerſall Church, I may deride the abſurditie of his ſequele, without any impeachment of the antecedent allegation. The like may be ſaid of Pſal. 91.13. as brought in by PopeccFoxe Martyrolog. Vol. 1. pag. 265. printed London. Ann. 1641. Alexander, to prove his proud uſurpation over Princes, when at Venice, Anno 1159. he ſet his foot upon the necke of the Emperour Frederick Barboroſſe; the Story whereof, thoughddBin. Tom. 7. concil. part. altera. p. 629. col. 1. Binius ſay it was fained by Henetiques,eeVicars Decapl. in lib. Pſalm. in p. 91. pag. 268. col. 2. is ſet out and is to be ſeene in a Table at Venice; and of theffSee Paraus in Gen. 28. ver. 12. col. 1597. inference which ſome make of the ubiquitie of the body of Chriſt from the viſion of Iacobs ladder, Gen. 28.12. And what reſolution can be made of a Popiſh gloſſe on Gen. 1.10. (according to the Latine Tranſlation, Congregationem aquarum vecavit maria, applying it to the praiſe of the Virgin Mary) without ſuch a ſcoffe as may expoſe the Authours ridiculous deſcant to ſcorne and laughter? which repeated by a learned Hebrician he begins the report withggAudi Lector & ride. Sixt. Amam. Antibarbar. Bibl. l. 2. p. 287. heare Reader and laugh. And if I thought your quotation of Matth. 9.17. were as wide from the ſcope, and as weake for the proofe of that for which it was produced by you, as ſome of theſe now mentioned allegations are, (wherein there are divers judicious and religious Readers concurring with me) I might (reſerving all due reſpect to that ſacred Text) entertaine your miſapplication of it, rather with a jeſting correction, then a ſerious conviction.
You will ſay perhaps, (as inhhSmoke. p.. 59. another place you have done) that miſ-application is a word ſooner written then proved, andiiIbid. you would have the Reader iudge (ſo would I, if he be neither imprudent nor partiall) whether it be your miſapplication or my miſinterpretation; and let him judge alſo whether miſ-interpretation be not a word ſooner written then proved, as well as miſapplication is;41 and let him further judge whether theſe words of yours [I am ſorry my younger pen ſhould reprove the aged for is ſting, which the Apoſtle faith is not convenient] ſhould have been uttered by you in a jeſting or jeering way, as they are; and whether now you ſhould not be ſorry in good earneſt, that your younger pen was ſo forward to blet the face of the aged with ſuch a blacke aſperſion, as uncomely ieſting at the Scripture, and (being but a ſervant) playing upon the Maſter of the Feaſt, or any thing in his hauſe, eſpecially upon his wine which alludes to his blood, and which he hath promiſed to drinke new with us in his Fathers Kingdome.
It would better have becomed you (eſpecially profeſſing ſuch reſpect to me as you doe in your Letter andkkSmoke. p. 16. elſe-where) to have taken my jeſting, as I meant it, with a candid acceptation; as the laughter of Ioh was received by younger men then himſelfe; If I laughed (faith he) they beleeved it not, and the light of my countenance they caſt not down, Iob 29.24. that is, (as the Laſt Annotations expound it) they thought a man of my gravitie would not be ſo familiar with them, or as Grotius makes the note:llEtiam joca mea putabant aliquid occultare ſerii. Grot. in Job 29.24. They thought ſome ſerious matter lay laid under my ieſting, and my familiaritie did not cauſe them to grieve, be angry, or contemne me, or**Authoritas mea mihi apud ipſos conſtabat. Grot. Ibid. my authoritie ſuffered no diminution by that meanes, or upon that occaſion.
You frame the like objection againſt me formmSmoke. p. 41. being too pleaſant with your expreſſion of the truth by a ſtarre, becauſe it is the very allegory of the ſpirit, and ſo was that which Barchoche has alluded unto, Numb. 24.17. yet was his miſapplication of it juſtly entertained with a taunt, and his name with deriſion turned into Be••bozba, the ſonne of a lie, for which I quoted two grave Authours in minennPag. 27. Examination of your Quere. You ſay there was more lightſomneſſe then light in that paſſage, and I beleeve there was more light alſo then in moſt parts of your Booke, which you have ſmoked in every page; you will ſay perhaps that here againe I am too pleaſant with your Scripture evidence, but let me tell you Sr. without offence, you are obſerved to play upon the Sacred ground-worke with too much boldneſſe, and wanto•neſſe of wit, to make many alluſions which are but illuſions of your owne miſinformed ſancie; and they take the Title of your Book to be very42 fantaſticall, and (beſides many jeſts which have paſſed upon it by ſome ingenuous Readers, which I forbeare, leſt I ſhould make you angry with that which made them merry) while I was writing this, there came to my hands a Latine Letter form a very learned and religious Divine, with whom I have a commerce of Letters in that Language, wherein he takes your Anſwer (which you call a full anſwer unto me) to have none other fulneſſe in it then aooPerſuafiſſimum habco — poſtertorem ejus (ſcil. libri) partem, quae responſum tuum perſtring it, merum fumum eſſe, ſacillimequeuno tctu calami tui diſſipatum iri, &c. fume and vapour, which will eaſily vaniſh into nothing.
SECT. XVI. Of the Preſbyteriall and Independent Government how affected; the ſlow proceeding of the Church Government made no Argument for it, nor mentioned to the disparagement of the Parliament; Mr. Saltm. brings the Parliaments Authority under popular liberty; of the wheat in Independent Congregations.
Smoke. Pag. 38.PRove your Argument (Government, you would ſay) firſt to be Chriſts, the particulars and entireneſſe accordingly, and then I ſhall allow you your Argument; but you grant it to be but partly Chriſts, partly the Aſſemblies, or of prudence.
Light.It is no part of mine undertaking to prove the Presbyteriall Government to be Chriſts Government, nor is it needfull ſo to doe; for I have told you where it is done already, which no man hath refuted nor can doe; nor is it needfull to aſſert every part of it by expreſſe Scripture; and if the Independent platforme be according to the pure Goſpel patterne, as you phraſe it, why have not your Brethren cleared that doubt all this while, having been ingaged thereto by promiſe, and often called upon for performance thereof?
43Smoke. Pag. 38.To your laſt that the Reformation hath proceeded by ſlow paces, and degrees; What, would you prove it by its ſlow proceeding to bee Chriſts Government, and therefore to be ſetled? that were a ſtrange kinde of reaſoning.
Light.I ſee it is not ſtrange with you to miſtake, or pervert a plaine truth; for did not you plead againſt the ſpeedy ſetling of the Presbyterian Government by the example of Chriſt? and was not mineppSee Sect. 8. p. 23. of mine Examination. Anſwer to this purpoſe, Chriſt was not ſo long in ſetling of his Government, nor the Parliament and Aſſembly ſo haſty as you pretended. Is this a proofe of mine opinion, I pray you, or a confutation of yours?
Smoke. Pag. 41.Why ſhould you ſpeake of the Governments fluttering on a limetwigge at Weſtminſter? ſure the State or Parliament may deſerve better of any of the Aſſembly, then to be thought their Retarders or limetwigs.
Light.Here you make as if I ſpake without due reſpect, or rather with termes of reproach unto the State or Parliament, for bringing in the Government as fluttering upon the limetwigge at Weſtminſter; and thereupon you ſay, Sure the State or Parliament may deſerve better of any of the Aſſembly then to be thought their Retarders or limetwigs: and you ſtrive to ſtraine up the words to an higher degree of guilt, by an aggravation of ingratitude, in that they have honoured them above their Brethren.
To which I anſwer: Firſt, that my words, Sect. 9. p. 26. are theſe; It hath been, if not the fault, yet the ill hap of our Church and State, to have the Government fluttering upon the limetwig of deliberation at Weſtminſter, when it ſhould be upon the wing of actuall execution all over the Kingdome.
Secondly, that if I had miſtaken termes of diminution of the dignitie of the Parliament, for termes of honour, and gratefull acknowledgement,44 there is no reaſon that for my fault the Aſſembly ſhould be involved in the imputation of an offence; ſince I did not write by any either command from them, or conſultation with them.
Thirdly, confining the charge to my ſelfe, I may challenge you for a fayling in charity, and memorie. Firſt, in charitie, in that you make ſo ill a conſtruction of my words both really, and perſonally; really interpreting the limetwig in a ſence of defilement, whereas I meant it onely as a let and impediment; (which may befall the deliberations of the beſt and wiſeſt men) and perſonally, in turning the terme upon the State or Parliament, in an offenſive ſignification towards them, whom I never meant, nor mentioned with a thought or expreſſion of diſparagement. Secondly, in memory, in that you forgate a precedent paſſage in my Booke, which might (had you remembred it) have prevented ſuch a ſiniſter ſurmiſe of the metaphor I uſed; my words which manifeſtly hold out a confutation of your corrupt gloſſe on theſe now in queſtion, are theſe,
Yet they cannot make that ſpeed with the Government which by moſt is deſired, and very much deſired by themſelves (as we of the Aſſembly can witneſſe who have often beene ſent to by that Honourable Senate to quicken our worke, and to ripen our debates to a full reſolution) becauſe as with us the libertie of ſpeaking (wherein every one is frce to propoſe and proſecute any doubt) prolonged the Government in our hands; ſo the like libertie in the Honourable Honſes (or rather our libertie is like theirs, it being the prototypon) longthens the debates, and delayes the votes of that moſt Honourable Senate; and ſo much the more, becauſe they are more in number then we in our Synod, and becauſe their determinations are finall as ours are not.
But when you have made the worſt ſence you can of them, you come in with this allay; it may be you call your diſſenting Brethren the limetwigs. I doe not that neither, for I doe not ſo confound perſons and things as to meane men to be the limet wigs, but their deliberations, objections, and obſtructions that ſtep in, and keepe out deciding votes, and reſolutions of debates; wherein if I mean your Independent Brethren had their part, and fault, I doe them45 no wrong; but then you make as if I wronged my ſelfe, defiling my argument with a limetwigge and be wraying our ſlow proceeding to have beene rather of conſtraint then conſcience; which is a me are inconſequence, for we neither endeavoured, nor deſired ſuch a precipitation of concluſions as ſhould not admit of neceſſary or competent conſideration, and diſcuſſion beforchund; nor ſuch a ſlowneſſe of proceeding as ſhould wiredraw a diſpute for a weeke or a fortnight, which would not have taken up one whole day, if there had not beene ſome ſuch among us asqqRem planam argumentatione facere dubiam. Hieron. adverſ. Ruffin. Tom. 2. operum p. 217. Hierome tax•th for cavilling a cleare truth into abſcuritie.
And now I have cleared my ſelfe of your imputation of diſreſpect to the State, or Parliament, I may rooriminate ſome contempt in you towards that moſt Honourable Aſſembly.
For, Firſt, you ſeeme to thinke it a matter of praiſe to your partic, thatrrSo in your Letter to me. you are more on the Magiſtrates ſide then the Magiſtrate on yours; as if the Magiſtrate were bound to tolerate your way againſt law, and the pence and union of Church and State, as much as you are bound to allow them their power, and authoritie for preſervation of the publicke welfare.
Secondly. In your deſigne for Pence, (as farre as you dare) you project a way to decline the Magiſtrates Authoritie about religious matters, which an adviſed Reader may perceive, though your termes be very cunningly choſen, and covertly couched together, where you ſay,ſſSmoke. p. 4. nu. 13. Let not aboſe beleevers who have the advantage of the Magiſtrate, ſtriue to make any unwarrantable uſe of it one againſt another, becauſe Scripture principles are not ſo cleare for it.
Thirdly, you for your part caſt a notorious calumnie upon the Parliament; callingttIbid. p. 25. the maint enance of the Miniſters by Tythes undeniably Iewiſh and Popiſh, which are confirmed by Ordinance of Parliament, whereof you cannot be ignorant; and it cannot be avoided if Tythes be of that nature, but that you make the Parliament Patrones of Iudaiſme and Popery, and that is ſuch a notorious reproach, as you ſhould not have entertained in your moſt ſecret thoughts, nor whiſpered in the care of any friend, much leſſe have proclaimed it in Print, in ſuch peremptory termes as you have done.
46Fourthly, you give up the Magiſtrates Authoritie to the peoples libertie, leaving it in their choice to receive, or refuſe Church-government, as they like or diſlike it; for thus you would have it propounded unto them,uuSmoke. p. 14. People, here is a Government, which to ſome of us ſeemeth to be a government according to the Word of God, take it and examine it, if you be ſo perſwaded, and if the Word of God hold it forth clearely, embrace it; if not, doe not obey any thing in blinde and implicite obedience; this were faire dealing with conſcience. But it were foule dealing with the Magiſtrate, yea and the people too, for it would bring all to Anarchie and confuſion, as Iudg. 17.6. If you ſay, you meane it in reſpect of the Aſſembly or Miniſters, they preſent it not to the people untill the Parliament have ratified it by their Authoritie; and ſo your meaning muſt be, that they ſhould put that to the peoples choice, which the Parliament hath concluded in their Votes, and impoſed both on Miniſters, and people by their civill Sanction; and what is this but to ſubject the Supreame Authority to the popular liberty?
Smoke. Pag. 44.You ſay we gather out the wheat, it is well you obſerve we have wheat amongſt us, which ſome of your Brethren will ſcarce allow ut, and you very hardly.
Light.Truly Sr. if you came truly by your wheat I would allow it you; but though I allow that you have wheat in fact, I ſay you have not that wheat in right, which you have gathered out of other Churches; for your gatherings are upon the grounds of Browniſme, with injury and calumnie of the Churches from whence your covenanted members are collected.
SECT. XVII. The ſettling of Government falſly ſuggeſted to be hereticall, with an implicit reproach upon the Parliament. Of the truth of Sleidans ſtory of the Anabaptiſts in Germany. A raſh cenſure of Luther, and the Lutherans in Germany for oppoſing them. A caveat to England to take warning by Germany. The Miniſters practice ſlandered, and the Magiſtrate diſhonoured by Mr. Saltm.
Smoke. Pag. 45.VVHether may not your ſettling things thus be as great an hereſie as you complaine againſt? Be ſparing, you may call thoſe truths which you now call hereſies. **See the like. p. 13.Paul preached that Doctrine after, which before be deſtroyed.
Light.What ſettling doe you meane? the debates, and votes, and advice of the Aſſembly to the Parliament, (which is all they doe) are no ſettlings of any thing; for when they are preſented to them, they come under their examination againe; but nothing is ſettled in Government, untill, after their diſcuſſion and reſolution, their civill Sanction be ſet upon it; and how ſhould this be an hereſie, as great an hereſie as we complaine of? we complain of all hereſies, what will be the conſequence of this implicit charge? can the Parliament ſettle hereſie and not be hereticks? nay worſe then ſo, for it is farre worſe to ſettle an hereſie, and to authoriſe it to ſo many thouſands as are under the power of the Parliament, then for any, or many particular perſons to hold an hereſie. And whereas you intimate a change of my minde, ſo farre as that I may be like, after the example of Paul, to preach for that Doctrine which now I deſtroy, I truſt (not in my ſelfe, but in the ſupport of Divine grace) that I ſhall alwaies be ſo farre opſite or adverſe unto you, untill you be ſettled, as to be conſtant to the truth I have beleeved, and profeſſed, while you runne your ſelfe giddy in the circle of erroneous, or hereticall opinions.
48Smoke. Pag. 46.To that of the Anabaptiſts and Sectaries quenched by Luthers mediation you ſay, I dave not beleeve your Hiſtorian, nor take all againſt them from the Pen of an enemy. He that takes the Parliaments Batiels from an Oxford Pon, ſhall reade nothing but rebellion rather them religion. And me thinkes I obſerve much here in your obſervation to the contrary.
Light.You ſay you dare not beleeve my Hiſtorian againſt the Anabaptiſts, more then an Oxford Pen concerning the Battels of the Parliament, from whence you ſhall read nothing but Rebellion rather then Religion; as if the warre of the Anabaptiſts were as warrantable as that of the Parliament, or Iohn Sleydan as contemptible, and incredible a Writer as Mercurius Aulicus, or Mercurius Academicus; which makes me thinke you have not read Sleydan, for if you had, you would obſerve and acknowledge in him as many〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉of a true Hiſtorian as in moſt, whether of the ancient or latter Ages, and ſo the moſt judicious Proteſtants eſteeme of him; The Papiſts I confeſſe undervalue him as you doe, and ſome of themaaSurius Preface in Ioh. Naucler. generat. Beruard. Dorhof. Apodeix. Calviniſt. non eſſe Aug. Confeſ. c. 4. Claud. Verderii Cenſiones. p. 8. b. vilifie him, as if he partially inclined to the Lutheran party againſt the Popiſh; yet ſome of them give him the praiſe of a good Hiſtorian, asbbJoh. Bod. Method. hiſt. c. 6. p. 48, 49. Iohn Bodine in his Method of hiſtory; and for the ſtory of the Anabaptiſts and their fanatick fancies, and furious uprores, they are not onely recorded by Sleydan, but by others, as bycPhilip Lonicerus. Theatr. hiſt. p. 107, &c. Philip Lonicerus, and bydBulliuger adverſus Anabapt. l. 2. c. 8, 9, 10, 11. Bullinger in his Booke againſt that Sect; byeFred. Spanbemii Diatrib. Hiſtor. de Orig. progreſ. &c. Anabaptiſt. in Appendice ad Clepenburgil Gangranam Anabaptiſt. p. 386. &c. where he citeth Luther, Melancthon, Zwingliut, Menius, & Regius. Ibid. p. 393. Spanhemius, byfCourad. Heresbach. I. C. hiſtoria Anabaptiſt. de factione Monaſterionſs anno 1534. ad Eraſm. Roterod. Epiſt. forma anno 1536. deſcript. excuſ. Amſterdam. per Henricum Laurentium. Conradus Hereſbachius,gTheodor. Strachii hypomnemat. & notae in illam Epiſt. eiſdem loco & anno excuſ. Theodorus Strachius, and byhLambert. Hortenſ. lib. tumult. Ansbapt. anno 1548. Bafil. edit••. Lambertus Hortenſius.
49Smoke. Pag. 46.We may rather thinke that Germany is a field of bloud to this day for ſhedding the blood of ſo many conſciences for ſome points of difference, and for Luthers mediation againſt them: looke well and tell me how much the Lutherans there have advanced in the reformation, have they not rather ſtood like Ioſhuahs Sunne where he left them?
Light.This againe ſheweth that you have not read, or not well conſidered of the principles and practices of the Anabaptiſts; which were ſuch both againſt God and man, as could not conſiſt with the ſafetie either of the Church or State; and therefore your cenſure of the ſinne and judgement of Germany, and of the Lutherans, is a preſumptuous perching into Gods Tribunall.
Smoke. Pag. 46.Let England take warning by Germany.
Light.Good counſell I confeſſe, but not in your ſence, in favour of ſuch Sects, or feare of oppoſing their fancies, or ſtopping their proceedings; but let England take warning by Germany for being too indulgent to them, upon their illuſive pretences of more illumination, and ſpirituall communion with God, then other men enjoy.
Smoke. Pag. 46.Let your warfare be ſpirituall, your weapons not carnall, put on the armour of light, and take them by a Gospel ſiege, and we are ſatisfied. But if you take them with the power of the Magiſtrate, with ſwords and ſtaves as they tooke Chriſt; if you come in this Goſpel controverſie to take them as the Parliament takes in their Towns and Cities, as your inſtance ſeemer to imply, take heed left you••ed were ſpirituall blood to that under the Altar, that〈◊〉ceaſes to cry, How long Lord, how long?
Light.If you ſpeake this to the Miniſters, their warfare is none other then ſpirituall; nor is the Magiſtrate their miniſter, to take Sectaries with ſwords or ſtaves if their tranſgreſſions deſerve it, ſince therein they doe their owne worke, whereto by their office they are obliged; and when they doe ſo, you ſhould not ſo diſparage the Magiſtrates as to match them with ſuch wicked Officers as ſet upon our bleſſed Saviour, and with violent hands violated the Majeſtie and Piety of his Perſon; nor ſo honour ſuch hereticall Incendiaries, and ſlaughter men as thoſe Anabaptiſts were, as to compare them to Chriſt. And for your caveat againſt ſhedding of ſpirituall blood, if you meane by that phraſe the blood of Sectaries, or Hereticks, whom ſome take to be more ſpirituall then other men, they are many of them very carnall Goſpellers; and if ſpirituall, rather ſuch as are led by a wicked ſpirit, the ſuggeſter of hereticall untruths, and tempter to diabolicall blaſphemies, and outrages, then ſuch as are guided by the Spirit of truth and holineſſe: and if by ſpirituall blood you meane (as the moſt judicious commonly uſe and underſtand the phraſe) the blood of ſoules; it is that which ingageth the Magiſtrates to repreſſe hereticall Teachers, for by drawing others to hereſie they are guilty of the blood of ſoules; and they are all guilty of that blood who doe not all they can, according to their place and power, to prevent the ſhedding of it by ſeducing Doctors; for zeale in this cauſe I have cited ſome lively and vigorous ſayings of the Ancients in my former**Sect. 12. p. 13. Book, to which I remit you.
Smoke. Pag. 46.So as you will have an hazard runne both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Miniſters; but ſure your Statiſts will tell you it is not ſafe trying experiments with States, they are too vaſt bodies for that; what thinke you of that Phyſician who will caſt his Patient into a diſeaſe to trie a cure on him? you know the old morall Adage, Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hoſpes.
light.To your exception we have not yet any experience of our new Clergie, myaaExamination of the New Querie. Sect. 10. p. 32. Anſwer was, Then they cannot yet be charged with miſgovernment of the people; and how can there be experience of them, if there be no Government to try them withall? but we have experience of much evill for want of Government, asbbIbid. I told you before. And for that you ſay, your Statiſts will tell you it is not ſafe trying experience with States, which you illuſtrate by a ſimilitude of a Phyſician caſting his Patient into a diſeaſe to try a cure on him: I like it very well in thoſe, and being rightly applied it makes much againſt you, and the toleration you plead for, for we have found it by wofull experience, that ſome politick Mountebankes have made a perillous experiment upon our State by connivence at, and preſſing for a toleration of many erroneous, and ſome very hereticall Sects; the cure whereof the longer it is delayed will be more difficult and more dangerous to the ſoules of the people, in whom errour and hereſie ſpread, and eat like a canker, or gangrene as in the Greeke, 2 Tim. 2.17.
SECT. XVIII. The Toleration deſired by Mr. Saltm. neither ſafe nor ſound, oppoſite to the minde of Paul, 1 Cor. 1.10. Gal. 5.10.12. Of the compariſon of the two ambitious Brethren to ten more humble and moderate; The Preſbytery not proved by Magiſtrates, though approved by them; Of the pretended truth of Sectaries, and of the preſcription of Biſhops and Independents.
Smoke. Pag. 47.I Would there were more ſuch, (that is, ſuch as would give full ſcope and libertie to multiplicitie of ſects) I am ſure it is ſafeſt, and ſoundeſt; It is ſafeſt, for there is no ſuch danger in that of crucifying Chriſt in ignorance, or fighting againſt God; and ſoundeſt,52 for ſo they die out moſt naturally by their owne unſoundneſſe, without noiſe and commotion.
Light.In this you have delivered a moſt unſafe, and unſound paradox, which is diſproved by the experience of former ages, and foraine parts; but moſt of all by that of our owne Kingdome within theſe foure yeeres laſt paſt: witneſſe Mr. Edwards his laſt Booke the Gangrene, which if you were ſo unpatiall and patient, as to read without prejudice or paſſion, you could not patiently review your own writing in this particular.
Smoke. Pag. 47.Oppoſe with words, as Paul did, but not with ſword, and turning the edge of authoritie againſt us.
light.In this you are oppoſite to Paul and your ſelfe both; to Paul, who expreſſely preſſeth to union in minde, in judgement, in ſpeech; 1 Cor. 1.10. and wiſheth them cut off who trouble the Church, Gal. 5.12. whereas you would have ſects to be left to themſelves: and to your ſelfe; whereas before you would have them let alone, to die out moſt naturally without noiſe, now you would have them oppoſed with words, as Paul did; but can there be words of oppoſition without any noiſe? And for that you ſay againſt the coercion or execution by the ſword, it is impertinently propoſed to the Presbytery, who take not upon them to turne the edge of authoritie any way; and prejudiciall to the prudence and power of Magiſtrates, as if they knew not when to uſe it, unleſſe they were admoniſhed and moved by others unto it, or might not uſe it againſt diſturbers of the publique peace of Church and State.
Smoke. Pag. 48.But how came you by ſuch plentie (as ten) of the better ſort for two of the worſe?
Light.There meeds none other anſw, to this queſt. then to repeat your53 words and mine aright: Your ſelfe ſaid**See my Examination of the New Querie. Sect. 10. p. 34. I queſtion not but ſome Preſbyterians may be like the ten, yet there are others like the two brethren, who ſtrive who ſhould be the greateſt. To which mine Anſwer is, If we keepe the proportion you brought in, and make application accordingly, we may ſay, for two ambitious Preſbyterians it is like there may be ten that are more modeſtly and humbly minded, then to affect ſuch a preeminence above their brethren.
Smoke. Pag. 48.Indeed you are able to prove by the Magiſtrate that Preſbytery is ſome of it Chriſts way, that is an argument of power, not of Scripture.
Light.How farre the Presbyteriall government is Chriſts way is ſufficiently ſet forth by the forecited Authour, who hath profeſſedly handled it; but who I pray you offers to prove by the Magiſtracy that the Presbytery is Chriſts way? they may prove it to the Magiſtrate, but to doe it by the Magiſtrate, is neither undertaken, nor required by any.
Smoke. Pag. 49.We had rather be a few with truth, then a multitude againſt it.
Light.If that were your minde, you would rather cloſe with Preſbyterians, whom you cannot deny to be ſound and Orthodox in all matters of faith, and godlineſſe, then with ſo many extravagant Sectaries, who are ſo contradictory both to the Scripture, and to themſelves, in their oppoſite Tenets, that there muſt needs be very much untruth in their Tenets.
Smoke. Pag. 50.The Biſhops had a better preſcription even by Law for their Government then we: (i. ) then Independents.
But how is this? is a legall preſcription better hold the a Gospel preſcription?
Light.In this and ſome lines next following you take that for granted,54 which we cannot yeeld, nor can you ever prove, viz. that your Independency is purely Evangelicall; which if you can make good (but the Texts you have crowded together at the end of your opening of Mr. Prinnes Vindication will not doe it) you ſhall make me of your Religion, when you let me know which it is you will chooſe, and ſtand to when you have choſen.
SECT. XIX. Of the pretended modeſty and humilitie of the Independents, by way of compariſon with the Preſbyterians.
Smoke. Pag. 50.BVt there is one Government ſet up already, a Civill, Parliamentary Government, and will you ſet up another above that, or coordinate with it? will you ſet up one government to rule another, or tutor another?
Light.And if your Independent Government were ſet up, which you accompt an Evangelicall and Scripture Government, Chriſts golden Scepter, Chriſt upon his Throne, ſhould that Government be above the Civill Government, or coordinate with it? would you ſet up this government to rule the other, or tutor the other? when you have anſwered theſe Queries put upon Independency, you will ſee it will not be difficult to anſwer the like concerning Presbytery; yet it is evident to all that make any ſerious obſervation on both wayes, that the Presbyteriall Government is more moderate, more ſubordinate to the Parliamentary Government then the Independent, becauſe that is humbly ſubmitted to the debate of the Parliament for approbation of it, and waiteth for their Civill eſtabliſhment before any part of it is put into execution and practiſe, the Independent Government (in this reſpect Independent on the Parliament, as well as on Claſſicall, Provinciall, and Nationall Aſſemblies) comes under no ſuch triall of them, but is ſet up without any authoritie from them.
55Smoke. Pag. 50.And muſt you needs ſet up as large a dominion as the civill power hath? muſt your Preſbytery be as ample, as high, as ſupreme as the Parliament? will no leſſe territory or kingdome ſerve it, but all England, whole Nations? muſt Chriſts government be iuſt as long, as broad as the worlds?
Light.Here is a great deale of aggravating Rhetoricke, to bring in a ſuſpicion of a vaſt, and unlimited domination of the Presbytery; and I pray you, Sr, if Independency were the Parliaments darling, as you deſire it, would nor you wiſh it, and, if you could, procure it to be ſet up in every Citie and Towne in England? would not you that think it a good government, the beſt government, advance your good opinion of it, & well-wiſhings to it, according to the maxime, Bonum que communius, comelius? Every good thing the more common, the more commendable? We obſerve your ſedulitie in ſpreading your opinions into remote regions, and cannot but conceive, by your zeale and activitie for your cauſe, that you are ambitious, like the Spaniard, to enlarge your Religion, as he his Dominions; whereof**Myraeus Comment. de bello Bohemic. p. 7. Myraeus ſaith, that the Sunne never ſets, but alwayes ſhines in ſome place or other where he raignes.
Smoke. Pag. 50.Now Reader iudge which government affects dominion? which brings in whole nations under the ſcepter of it? poore Scripture government can be content to ſit downe in a village; To the Church in thy houſe, ſaith the Spirit; in a Citie, as Corinth; and over but a few there, the Saints onely in fellowſhip; to the Church in Corinth, in a Countrey, not over a Countrey; To the ſeven Churches in Aſia, not of Aſia; not the Church of Aſia, or the Church Aſia, a Church taking in halfe part of the world.
Light.And let the Reader judge how much of roving fancie and fond affection, how little judgement is in this paragraph. Which Government, ſay you, affects dominion? &c. ſpeake properly Sir, and the truth will better appeare, and be more ready for ſentence and56 judgement, and then your queſtion will be; which ſort of thoſe that ſtand for Government (for the government as abſtracted from them hath no affections at all) affect dominion more? You ſay poore Scripture government can be content to ſit down in a village, to the Church in thy houſe, &c. where you aſſume and preſuppoſe (which I deny) that Independency is a government either poore or pure according to the Scriptures. And for Independent Miniſters when you ſee them ſo placed in the Citie, in the chiefe Citie of the Kingdome, culling out of mens charges the faireſt and fatteſt of their flocks to be the materials and members of their newgathered Churches, and ſo ordering their Sermons, and covenanting with their hearers, that they have the moſt populous congregations, all ſects coming to heare them, and adhering to them as to their Patrons, who will not come to the Sermons of the moſt Orthodox and able Preachers of the Presbyteriall way;
When you know, or may know that moſt of them are eminently richer then other Miniſters, how can you, how dare you bragge of the humilitie, and povertie of Independency ſitting down contented with a village? eſpecially, when none of thoſe who ſet up Independency in England planted themſelves in a village, except in vicinitie to ſome great Citie where they might have the profit, and comfort, and the beſt accommodations of Citie and Countrey?
And for the ſmall Church in a houſe, or a particular Citie, in a Countrey, not over a Countrey, in Aſia, not the Church of Aſia; This makes no more for Independency then for Presbytery, when there were too few profeſſing the faith to be ſorted into Congregations Claſſicall, Provinciall and Nationall Aſſemblies; and ſo your inſtance cannot be a fit patterne for theſe times, wherein the profeſſion of the Goſpel is received all over the Kingdome.
SECT. XX. Whether Chriſt, if he would have a nationall comprehenſive Church, was bound to have begun the practiſe of it over whole Kingdomes, as Mr. Saltm. ſaith; and whether importeth more pride, to deſire a ſubordination of Aſſemblies, Parochiall, Claſſicall, &c. then to be adverſe to it.
Smoke. Pag. 50, 51.SVre if Chriſt would have had ſuch a nationall comprehenſive Church, he would have converted Kings and Princes firſt, and they ſhould have given up their Kingdomes to Ieſus Chriſt in the way of a Preſbyterian.
Light.To this I oppoſe your own words, both in youraaNew Querie repeated in my Examination. Sect. 12. p. 38. Querie and in your Smoke, in both which places, you tell your Reader that the publication of the Goſpel and the propoſall of Church government were brought in at diſtance: hereſies, ſay you, might have growne from Iohns firſt Sermon to Pauls Epiſtles, and the ſending of the Spirit, but you ſee there was no government ſetled till afterwards upon the people of Gods and in your laſt you tell me, thatbbSmoke. p. 54. you ſhewed me that no government began with the Goſpel manifeſtation, by which (ſay you) I made it appeare, that if government had been of ſuch morall neceſſitie, why was it not given out with the Goſpels firſt giving out?
Albeit then the Goſpel began not with the converſion of Kings and whole Kingdomes, yet the progreſſe of it hath been ſo proſperous as to prevaile ſo farre, and with the extent of it, may the government of the Goſpel be extended alſo, and it may be ſet up after it, by your own confeſſion rather then with it.
Smoke. Pag. 51.Nay it ought to have been ſo, Ieſus Chriſt was bound in the way of righteouſneſſe, to have begun the practice and modell to us over whole Kingdomes, having not left it in precept in the whole Goſpel; and we ought either to have practice or precept to order and command us in what we obey.
Light.What? ought Chriſt, or was he bound in the way of righteouſneſſe to begin the Goſpel with converſion of Kings, and whole Kingdomes, if he meant to have ſuch a Nationall and comprehenſive Church as the Presbyterians plead for? was he not free to begin the publication of it where he pleaſed, in the wilderneſſe of Iudea, rather then in the Citie Ieruſalem? and to whom he pleaſed, to Shepheards in the field, rather then to Auguſtus in the Court?
If it had begun there; Firſt, It might have been ſuſpected as a Politicke deviſe, like that whichccMachiav. disp. lib. 1. cap. 11. p. 63. Machiavel commends in Romulus and Numa, ſetting up religion by fained revelation.
Secondly, Then the Doctrine of the Goſpel, condemned as folly by ſupercilious and ſecular wiſe men, 1 Cor. 1.23. had not appeared ſo wiſe and powerfull as it was, verſ. 18, 19, 20. of the ſame Chapter; nor,
Thirdly, Had it had ſo many illuſtrious confirmations, both by miracles, and martyrdomes, as we find upon record both in the Scriptures, and Eccleſiaſticall Hiſtories.
And was it not in his own choice to make his own pace for the proceeding both of Goſpel and Government? If you will ſo confine Chriſt to your wayes of working, you make him Dependent, while you claime an Independent priviledge to your ſelfe.
And for that you ſay, for practice or precept, to order and command us in what we obey, we have both in the Goſpels of our Saviour, and Epiſtles of the Apoſtles, and the Hiſtory of their Acts, (according to which the Aſſembly have given up their advice to the Parliament) warrant for Church Government, and ſo we hope it will come down from them by a Parliamentary approbation, and conſtitution for the eſtabliſhment thereof throughout the whole Kingdome. And yet is not the Presbyteriall Government more ambitious, or domineering then the Independent; Nay, let the Indifferent Reader obſerve, and conſider the difference, and let him then reſolve, whether the Presbyterian or Independent be more affected to preeminence, or more willing to come under rule and government.
Firſt, The Presbyterians carneſtly deſire the union, whereto59 the Apoſtle emphatically exhorteth the Chriſtian Corinthians; Now I beſeech you brethren, by the Name of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, that ye all ſpeake the ſame thing, and that there be no diviſions among you, but that ye be perfectly ioyned together in the ſame minde and in the ſame iudgement, 1 Cor. 1.10.
Secondly, This union cannot be without a rule of conſent; the rule of conſent cannot be of any force, unleſſe it have the power and obligation of a law; this law requireth, as well ſubordination, as union; and this ſubordination is agreeable not onely to reaſon, but to Religion and Scripture, for the ſpirits of the Prophets are ſubiect to the Prophets, 1 Cor. 14.32.
Thirdly, The Presbyterians, who yeeld to this ſubordination, eſpecially to the Superiour Aſſemblies, not knowing, and the moſt of them not expecting to be members either of Provinciall, or Nationall Aſſemblies, doe all of them in their allowance of graduall appeales ſubmit themſelves to the conſures of others, which is an act not of dominion, but of ſubjection. But the Independents will be as diffuſive in their Church-way, and grow on from Cities to Countries, from Countries to Kingdomes, and will be like little Kings, or Free States in their own Congregations, and will admit of no ſubordination, or ſubmiſſion to any Eccleſiaſticall Aſſembly whatſoever, though there be many caſes which reach, beyond the limits of their covenanted meetings, to occaſions of common concernment to many Churches; yea ſome of them are ſo comprehenſive, as to belong to all the Churches of a Kingdome, which can neither be ſufficiently conſidered, nor ordered for the generall good, without a more generall convention and conſultation of Church governours.
The Pope, though hated and ſcorned by you as an Antichriſtian Caiaphas, is a great, and I may ſay the ſupreme Independent in the Chriſtian world; and his Independencie conſiſteth in this, that he will be judged of none; and herein truly Sr. you ſymbolize too much with the Papall ambition; in that as much as you can you free your ſelves from all Eccleſiaſticall ſubjection; and this being a chief part of his Antichriſtian exaltation, Independencie is rather Antichriſtian, then Presbyterie.
There is another part of the Papall pride, which is to require60 that all be ſubject unto him that he may cenſure and judge of all; and if I ſhould ſtraine your words, as you ſometimes doe mine. I ſhould ſay you are flown ſo high in your fancie, as to be got above the high pitch of the Popes Mitre; for he tooke not upon him to judge, or give lawes to Chriſt (though to all Chriſtians) as you doe, where you ſay that Chriſt ought, and was bound in the way of righteouſneſſe to have begun the practiſe and modell to us over whole Kingdomes, &c.
SECT. XXI. Mr. Saltm. his miſtake touching the building of the Temple. Of the difference of the patterne of the Temple and the patterne of the Government of the Gospel. Mr. Saltm. confuſedly jumbleth them together.
Smoke. Pag. 52.TO the difference I made of the materiall and Gospel patterne you ſay nothing, and that is the onely conſiderable. It may be, as you ſaid of me, you are beſt able to deale with the other.
Light.I confeſſe I paſſed over ſomewhat in your Quere, more in your laſt Booke, but nothing in either wherein I conceived there was any thing of weight, or pertinencie to the cauſe in difference betwixt us. Yet to that differenceaaSect. 11. p. 37. I ſaid ſomething in its proper place, andbbSect. 5. p. 16, 17. referred you to another Section where I obſerved more differences then you brought in; and whether I owe you any thing for that particular, the Reader ſhall judge; and if he find I was in your debt, he ſhall ſee I ſhall make ready payment of what is behinde; and it may be by that time I have done with your objection, you will thinke it better you had taken no notice of this omiſſion, then occaſioned me to make ſuch an amends for it as now I muſt doe.
In the laſt leaſe of your Quere, when you had brought in your61 reaſons for retarding the Governement, you bring in two objections, and make Anſwers to them; the former is this,ccNew Quere. p. 7. Ob. 1. But the Temple was builded with all ſpeed in Nehemiahs time, and Haggai cals to the building, Is it time, &c. Hag. 1.4.
Before I bring in my Reply to your Anſwer, I muſt minde you of a miſtake in your ſingle ſheet; which though it be but ſhort is lyable to a very juſt exception for an errour in Story; and you ſhould have heard of it ſooner from me, but that I obſerved it not my ſelfe untill I found I was miſguided by your allegation; for I tooke it upon truſt from you, becauſe I did not ſuſpect you would miſalledge any thing, which did no way conduce unto your cauſe, as the time of the building of the Temple doth not; now though the errour were originally yours, the correction may be mine, which you may better receive from me, then I might take miſpriſion from you; you ſay the Temple was built in Nehemiahs time, but the truth is it was not, as you affirme, built in, but before Nehemiahs time, for the foundation of it was laide in the ſecond yeare of Darius, Hag. 2.10.17. (i. ) in the yeere of the world 3452. 519 yeers before the Incarnation of Chriſt; and it was finiſhed in the ſixth yeere of Darius, Ezra 6.15. that is, in the yeare of the world 3456. 515 yeers before Chriſts Incarnation; but that building of Nehemiah was the building of the wals of Jeruſalem, Nehem. 2.17, 18, 19. and this was in the yeere of the world, 3527. about 444. yeeres before the birth of the Meſſias; this worke about the wals was a worke but of 52. dayes, Nehem, 6.15. the former about the Temple laſted about 4. yeeres, as from the Scriptures forealledged may be inferred.
Now for your Anſwer it is this, Yea but the materiall patterne was more clearely left, and knowne then the Gospel patternes, the other were more in the letter, and theſe more in the ſpirit; now there muſt be a proving of all things, elſe there may be more haſte then good ſpeed, as the Temple may be built by a falſe patterne as well as by a true; and then better no building then no right Cedar to build withall.
This is all for which you challenge my ſilence; and whereas you intimate ſome ſoliditie in it, which I was not ſo well able to deale with, as with the other part of your Anſwer: Truly Sr. 62I neither had, nor have any ſuch opinion of it; it ſeemed to me at firſt, and it doth ſo now upon the review, to be an intricate, perplexed, and confuſed jumbling of Metaphoricall, and literall expreſſions together; and not more darke for lack of light, then weake for want of ſtrength to that purpoſe for which it was framed: and therefore I thought it more fit for a tacit preterition, then for an expreſſe examination. But if you will have this rather, you ſhall have it; and ſo I ſay unto it,
Firſt, that if the patterne were more cleare for building the Temple, then the Goſpel patterne for the ſetting up of a Church-Government, why are you ſo confident, and peremptory, and punctuall for your Goſpel patterne?
Secondly, Why tell you us of Goſpel patterns in the plurall number? is there any more then one patterne of Government in the Goſpel? if ſo, though the Independent patterne be yeelded to be a Goſpel patterne, (which cannot be proved) the Presbyterian may be ſo too, for if there be more then one, that rather then any other may be allowed to be another.
Thirdly, when you ſay the other were more in the letter, theſe more in the ſpirit, what is your meaning by theſe words? were there more formes and patternes of the Temple then one? if there were, why doe you not ſpeake more clearely to the point of difference, betwixt them? if not, why ſay you they were more in the letter? and when you ſay theſe Goſpel patterns are more in the ſpirit; I would know whether they be written, or not written; if they be written, they are as much in the letter as the other; if they be not written, how can you tell they be Goſpel patterns?
Fourthly, whereas you ſay, The Temple may be builded by a falſe patterne, if you meane it of the materiall Temple, you deny the cleareneſſe of the patterne which before you profeſſed. And,
Fifthly, When you ſay, The Temple may be builded by a falſe patterne, as well as by a true, if you meane it of the materiall Temple in Ezra's time, what is that to the Goſpel Government, in, or ſince our Saviours time? or if any thing, it is to contradict your ſelfe, who make the Temple patterne ſo cleare that there is no danger of a falſe patterne of miſguidance. If you meane it of the63 Government of the Goſpel, why doe you ſo confound what in the beginning of your Anſwer to the Objection you pretend to diſtinguiſh, to wit, the materiall Temple and the Evangelicall order of the Church?
Laſtly, whereas you ſay, Better no building at all then no right Cedar to build withall, what's your meaning by this metaphor? Cedar was the matter to build with, not the patterne whereby the building was to be formed, and ſet together; which was the thing, whereof you would make the Reader beleeve you made a fit compariſon, and ſhewed a materiall difference why the building of the Temple might be haſtened in Ezra's time, and yet the ſetting up of Government ſhould be delayed in our time; for which you have ſaid nothing either to declare, or aſſure what you tooke upon you to illuſtrate, and make good unto your Reader, whom I require now againe to judge betwixt us, whether this paſſage of your Quere were not better omitted by me, then remembred by you, to put me to make ſuch an Anſwer unto it as I have done.
SECT. XXII. Of ſtaying for the Spirit to give light of inſtruction to the reformation of the Church.
Smoke. Pag. 52.IS not that a very Gospel way to ſtay for the Spirits coming into the ſervants of the Lord? take heed of denying inspired diſciples, you know it is a part of the fulfilling of the great Prophecie, Act. 2. Indeed ſome of the Prelates, many of them being uninspired themſelves, and having little of the ſpirit or none, would needs ſay therefore that all inspirations and ſpirituall inlightnings, were ended in the Church, becauſe ended in them; and becauſe they were ſo carnall themſelves, they thought none was ſpirituall; and you remember how they made lawes even againſt the ſpirit in prayer.
Light.Firſt, I confeſſe it is a Goſpel way to ſtay for the ſpirits coming into the ſervants of the Lord; the Apoſtles were commanded by our Saviour not to depart from Ieruſalem, but to waite there for the promiſe of the Father, Act. 1.4. and they did ſo, and there the Holy Ghoſt came upon them, Act. 2.3. And ſo the Prophecy of Ioel of pouring out the ſpirit in the laſt dayes, Ioel 2.28. was fulfilled, and is ſo implied by Peter, Act. 2. verſ. 16, 17.
Secondly, by the laſt dayes is not to be underſtood our preſent Age, 1645 yeers after our Saviours firſt coming, and God knows how many before his ſecond coming; by the laſt dayes may be underſtood not preciſely thoſe which are next to the worlds end, but after times; as in the prophecie of Iacob, Gen. 19.1. which ſometimes may be further, as in that of Iacob and Ioel, ſometimes neerer hand, as the Prophecie of Peter that there ſhould come in the laſt dayes ſcoffers, 2 Pet. 2.3. which was fulfilled, and ſo is recorded in the laſt of the Apoſtolicall Epiſtles, for in the 17. & 18. verſes of Iudes Epiſtle, ſaith he, Beloved remember the words which were ſpoken before of the Apoſtles of our Lord Jeſus Chriſt, how that they told you there ſhould be mockers in the laſt times, who ſhould walke after their owne ungodly luſts; but the dayes of the Goſpel are called the laſt times, becauſe after that is brought forth we muſt looke for no more changes of Religion, and the manner of Gods worſhip, as there was before in Moſes time from what was in uſe before with the Patriarchs, and ſince Chriſts time from the Ceremonials of Moſes.
Thirdly, though I doe not nor dare put limits to the Spirit, which is free as the winde that bloweth where it liſteth, Ioh. 3.8. and doe acknowledge and bleſſe God for it that there is〈◊〉ſpirit of grace and ſupplications, Zach. 1•.10. poured out upon many of Gods people; and not onely upon Preachers, but alſo upon divers others which are not: and that it was a wicked part in divers of the Prelates (for all on my knowledge were not guilty of it) to ſtint the Miniſters of the Goſpel, as they did by the〈◊〉forme in their Conan, which was rather a bidding invitation to prayer, then a prayer it ſolfe.
Yet fourthly, ſince the Apoſtle Paul foretels of the later times,65 that there ſhall be〈◊〉ſpirits, and dectrines of Devils, ſpeaking lyes in hypocriſie, 1 Tin•. 4.1.12. and John the Apoſtle gives a caveat againſt credulity in this caſe, Beloved, beleeve not every ſpirit, but try the ſpirits whether they be of God, 1 Ioh. 4.1. and that Chriſtians are admoniſhed to try all things, 1 Theſ. 5.21. and the Church of Epheſus is commended for trying thoſe who ſaid they were Apoſtles and were not, and found them lyors, Revel. 2.2. and the tryall is to be made by the law, and by the teſtimonie of the Scripture; and if they ſpeake not according to this, it is becauſe there is no light in them, Eſa. 20.8. And ſince I have read of many horrid and abominable things committed upon pretence of revelation of the ſpirit;
Laſtly, ſince the Government of the Church is not a matter of private inſpiration, but of publique direction, and uſe to the whole Church, and that the Word of God, as a ſtanding ru•e, is to give us directions in Goſpel diſpenſations, I dare not expect where that ſpeakes nothing, that the defect will be made out, or made up with the whiſperings of a private ſpirſt, eſpecially againſt the concurrent judgement of the moſt Orthodox Divines of the Reformed Churches.
SECT. XXIII. Of expedition or delay in ſetting up of Government; Whether Moſes and Chriſt, the Iewiſh and Chriſtian ſtate be ſo contrary, that there is no conformity betweene them.
Smoke. Pag. 54.ANd now after all this diſcourſe and ravelings out of time from Iohns Sermon, &c. what have you gained, not that the Government was ſo one〈◊〉the•you have proved much to my advantage, and a clourer and fuller computation then I did the contrary; ſo as you have beene taking ſome learned paines, if you well obſerve, and the Reader will obſerve you, to prove that the Government as firſt was not ſuddenly caſt into a〈◊〉, or brought forth in practice,66 which is the very thing I aimed at: and truly your paines in it have beene more then mine, and I thanke you for it.
Light.I muſt recall you to our former entercourſe to give light for the clearing this exception;aaNew Quere. p. 7. you bring in a ſecond Objection againſt the delay of it thus: But vica, bereſies and ſehiſmes grew too faſt, and you anſwer it thus:bbIbid. p. 8. ſo they might have done from Iohns firſt Sermon to Pauls Epiſtles, and the ſending of the Spirit, but yet you ſee there was no Government till after ſettled upon the people of God. And not ſhewing how long after, I calculated the time for you; and you are pleaſed in the end of the precedent Paragraph to commend my paines as more exact then yours, and to thanke me for it; but yet withall you make as if I had ravelled into time to prove your Tenet againſt mine own, wherein I ſhall eaſily diſprove you. For you brought in the putting off the government from Iohn Baptiſts time untill Pauls Epiſtles, and the ſending of the Spirit; (where you confuſedly ſhuffle things together, which ſhould be carefully diſtinguiſhed) and if you meane it of the time fromccSee mine Examin. of the New Quere. p. 39. Iohns preaching to the pouring out of the Spirit at the Feaſt of Pentecoſt, it is but five yeares; if to the firſt of Pauls Epiſtles, but 21; if to the laſt, 29 yeares; and before the end of that Epiſtle that Government was written which we finde in Scripture. Now take which of theſe times you will, and compare it to our time and State, and it will not ſerve for any cauſe or ground of adjournment, or putting off the Church Government to a further Date, as you would have it.
For, if that Government which the Scripture hath laid down be offered to acceptation, and eſtabliſhment, ſhall we take 29 yeares time, or 21 yeares time, or 5 yeares time before we will admit of it? eſpecially ſince we have been for many yeares together converſant in the Scriptures, where it is founded, and have had the practice of it exemplified unto us in many Reformed Churches for 100 yeares together; ſo that though 5, or 21, or 29 yeares, were to be taken for a long time in reſpect of the firſt age of the Church, before the government of it was ſetled upon the people of God, (and yet it was but a while, the progreſſe of the67 Goſpel duely weighed) it makes nothing for the delay of Government you drive at: and ſo diſappointing your purpoſe, which was out of that inſtance to make ſome ſhew for the ſlackneſſe in Government which you deſire, I pleaded not your cauſe, but the truths, and mine own in proſecution of it againſt your exception. I ſhall be willing in ſome other way to doe you a courteſie, and to deſerve your thankes, but expect not I ſhould be ſo unfaithfull, or fickle, or ſimple, as to deſert the defence I have undertaken, or ſo to manage it, as to give mine adverſary advantage by it.
Smoke. Pag. 55.For that of old Elyes indulgence which you ſpeake〈◊〉, you are ſtill looking upon Moſes, though you tell us of Chriſt; make the Kingdome of Iſrael and of England the ſame, a Iewiſh and a Chriſtian State the ſame, and then we ſhall allow you both Elyes ſinne, and his ſonnes maintenance by tythes and offerings.
Light.Having cited the example of old Ely, againſt indulgence to ſuch as reproach and ſcandalize Religion, eſpecially againſt toleration of blaſphemers, as Paul Beſt, who made blaſphemous verſes againſt the Trinitie; you tell me, I am ſtill looking upon Moſes, though I tell you of Chriſt; you meane by like that I am ſtill upon mine Annotations on the Pentateuch, but they are printed a good while ſince; and I doe not thinke you have often found me looking upon Moſes, ſince I had occaſion to looke upon you as an adverſary; but if you looked upon him oftner, and underſtood him better, I beleeve you would be a more ſound and Orthodox Divine then as yet I can accompt you.
It is the manner of the Antinomians (of whoſe impious and pernicious opinions, ſome of your writings have a ſtrong ſavour) to ſhew their ſlightings of Moſes upon all occaſions; But Sir, though his Ceremonials be aboliſhed, his Indicials not eſtabliſhed in Chriſtian Common-wealths, (yet for ſome penall lawes, I thinke we ſhould be better governed if they were more Moſaicall) yet his face ſtill ſhines, and ſhall doe to the end of the world, in the pietie, equitie, regularitie, and utilitie of the Morall Law, which he brought from the Mount.
68After your reproofe of me you appoint me a taske, and make me a promiſe; the taske is, that I muſt make the Kingdome of Iſrael and of England the ſame, a Iewiſh and a Chriſtian State the ſame; Why I pray you, Sir, muſt I make them all one, becauſe I bring an example of Caution out of the Old Teſtament? neither upon that ground, nor your command doe I finde my ſelfe obliged to ſuch an undertaking; nor is it any mans worke ſo to compare or reſemble them as to make them the ſame, ſince they doe, and of neceſſitie muſt differ in many things; and though they differ much, yet in divers things they do agree likewiſe, as the Apoſtle ſheweth in part, 1 Cor. 10.1, 2, 3; 4. and that their ſinnes and puniſhments ſhould be warnings to us (for which purpoſe I cited old Elyes caſe) he ſheweth by many examples out of the Old Teſtament, from verſ. 5. to the 11; was it the Apoſtles dutie (having ſo done) to undertake a proofe of the paritle or identitie of the Corinthian or Chriſtian and the Iewiſh State?
Now if I make good this, you promiſe to allow me both Elyes ſinne, and his ſonnes maintenance by tythes and offerings; but I will not take you at your word, for this liberall offer; keep Elyes ſinne to your ſelfe if you pleaſe; and ſince I know you are diſpleaſed with Tythes, put them upon me, and I will either prove them lawfull, and I thinke I have done it already; or give them up as you have done.
SECT. XXIIII. Truth not to be parted with for peace, the Magiſtrate diſhonoured, and the Preſbyterians ſlandered by Mr. Saltm.
Smoke. Pag. 55.YOu would prove truth to be pretious to the diſadvantage of peace, and therefore you bring in the Fathers againſt the Arrians, and no againſt the Papiſts, and Chriſt againſt Peace; but what, would you prove that truth ought to be eſtabliſhed againſt peace, and peace to be no way to truth? ſurely, truth and peace doe meet together, nay they are ſo much one,〈◊〉there is even a truth in peace.
Light.In your exception againſt the example of Ely; you play the Antinomian, in this and the next enſuing paragraph you take up the Tenet of the Anabaptiſts againſt the lawfulneſſe of warre, though not theirs onely, for ſome of the Fathers, and ſome famous Papiſts have been of that opinion, but I finde you not much verſed in the writings of the Fathers, and very averſe from the opinions of the Papiſts, and but too kinde and complying in conceipt with Anabaptiſts, therefore I ſuppoſe a ſymbolizing rather with them then with either of the other Sects; whereto I would make a returne, and that returne ſhould be a refutation of that fancy, but that I have done it in print already, inaaIn my Sermon of the Fury of warre and folly of ſinne, p. 10. ad 15. my Sermon before the Honourable Houſe of Commons, April. 26. 1645.
Smoke. Pag. 56.You ſay there will be worke for the Magiſtrate enough to puniſh the contumacious, &c.
That is in Engliſh, the Preſbytery will keepe the Magiſtrate doing; and now who diſparage the Magiſtrates? who ſet them on work? who make them their Deputie puniſhers? nay who is the Satante whom the excommunicate are delivered? it is an expreſſion not much beſldes your principles; and who disparages the Magiſtrate in that?
Light.A little before you pleaded too much for peace, and now you would breake the peace, and play the make-bate betwixt the Magiſtracy and the Presbytery, and to that purpoſe you make crooked conſequences from right words, and upright intentions, that you may at laſt put the name of Satan upon the Magiſtrate in the name of a Presbyter; but take heed Sir, leſt ſome ſay (though I doe not) you deſerve the other name of that Arch-malignant, viz. 〈…〉〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉, to be returned upon you, which is a fit title for a falſe accuſer, and ſo uſed by the Apoſtle, 2 Tim. 3.3. For how could you with truth, ingenuitie, or charitie, make ſuch deductions as you doe from my words, in Anſwer to yours? you ſay, (to make the Presbyteriall Government needleſſe,)bbNew Quere. p. 8. If morall tranſgreſſions ſtirre, let the Magiſtrate be ſet on in every place. I aske,ccSect. 12. p. 41. of mine Exam. ſet out70 by whom? and how? Doth he meane that the Magiſtrate is as a ſhepheards dogge, to be ſet on the wolfe that cometh to make ſpoile of the flocke? we cannot have ſo meane a thought of the Magiſtrate, as to make mention of him in ſuch termes of diſparagement. Neither dare we take upon us, either ſo much intereſt in all Magiſtrates, or ſo much power in any, as to give them the watch-word when to draw the ſword, and to expect that they ſhould wield it as we would have them. And not withſtanding the preaching of the Presbyters, and exerciſe of the Presbytery, there will be worke enough for the Magiſtrate to bring them under a civill triall, &c.
Are theſe words capable of ſuch a gloſſe as you make of them, that the Preſbytery will keepe the Magiſtracy doing, and now who diſparages the Magiſtrates? who ſets them a worke? Not the Preſbyterians, but you, and your party rather; for your words are, Let them be ſet on. Who makes them Deputie puniſhers? Not the Preſbyterians, who take no ſuch power upon them as to appoint them to puniſh any one; nor (if they doe puniſh) accompt them Deputies to any, but doers of their own worke. Nay, who is the Satan, to whom the excommunicate are delivered? The Magiſtrate, as you imply, and impoſe that reproach upon Presbyterians; For you ſay, it is an expreſſion not farre beſide your principles, and who diſparages the Magiſtrate in that? But ſtay good Sir, what Presbyterians expound thoſe words of delivery unto Satan, 1 Corinth. 5.5. 1 Tim. 1.20. with an application to the Magiſtrate? neither Calvin, Beza, Marl•rat, Piſcator, Deodate, norddIn his late Booke againſt Eraſtus cap. 11. q. 7. pag. 354, 355. Mr. Rutherford, nor any Presbyterian that ever I read, make the Magiſtrate the Devill in theſe Texts; no nor Vatablus nor Aquinas, of the Popiſh Church; and I thinke it will be hard for you to finde any Authour of note, of what Religion ſo ever, that ſo takes, or rather miſ-takes the words as you doe; and impoſſible to produce any Presbyterian principles, which with any colour or probabilitie may be drawn, or by any violence and importunitie be drag'd to ſuch a ſenſe of diſparagement of the Magiſtrate, as you have ſuggeſted; and ſo the calumny and contempt of their calling muſt be laid at your doore, to father it as an ill-favoured brat of your own begetting.
SECT. XXV. The Magiſtrates aſsiſtance to the Eccleſiaſticall Government, no argument to prove it no Gospel Government; the ſword of God and of Gideon, of Church Diſcipline, and civill ſeveritie, how lawfull and uſefull; zeale againſt toleration of evill commended connivence at it blameable.
Smoke. Pag. 57.YOu ſay you cannot divide diſcipline from his aſsiſtance who can make it effectuall, that is, from the Magiſtrate, this is a ſigne without further argument, that you doe not hold your government for Chriſts, becauſe it cannot be effectuall of it ſelfe without helpe below.
Light.Here as in many other places you ſhew little ingenuitie in repeating my words, which are not as you cite them; but thus,eeExamination of the New Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 42. We cannot thinke it meet to divide ſubſervient meanes from the ſupreme power, nor the exerciſe of Diſcipline, and government from his Aſſiſtance who can make it effectuall, that is, (ſay you) from the Magiſtrate; and that is, ſay I, your maledicta gloſſa which corrupts the Text; my words import not the inferiour efficacy of the Magiſtrate, but the ſuperiour of God; and therefore your inference upon it is a ſecond injury, and violence you commit againſt my ſaying and ſence; and yet though the Diſcipline be Chriſts, we muſt crave the conſent and ſanction of the Civill Magiſtrates, that we may put it in practice, as the Presbyterians of the Dutch and French Churches in London; and with their aſſiſtance it may be more effectuall then without it it can be, as the Magiſtrates antheritie may have a more awfull operation upon the people if aſſiſted by the Miniſters in their Sermons, and popular exhortations; and yet you will not deny but that Magiſtracy is the ordinance of God, Rom. 13.1.
Smoke. Pag. 57.Nor is the ſword of God and Gideon any faire, or iuſt proofe for72 ioyning Preſbytery and Magiſtracy, it onely ioynes God and the Magiſtrates.
Light.I joyne the ſword of God and Gideon, not as a proofe for uniting Presbytery and Magiſtracy, but as an illuſtration of aſſociation of different meanes to the ſame end, or of concurrent operations to the ſame purpoſe; and yet if the cauſe of God in the hands of the Presbytery doe need, and have aide in the hand of the Magiſtrate to help it forward, there the ſword of the Spirit, which is the ſword of the Lord, in the mouth of his Miniſters, and the ſword of Gideon, that is, the ſword of the Magiſtrate, may be ſaid to be joyned.
Smoke. Pag. 57.You ſay your godly it alouſie will ſet up as many ſecurities as may be. But then they are warrantable and Gospel wayes of ſecuritie; that is no godly iealouſie which ſets up other wayes, as Herod killing all the young children to ſecure his kingdome, David diſſembling to eſcape, Iacob to get a bleſsing.
Light.To that you ſaid;ffNew Quere. pag. 8. It is the Papiſts and Prolates iealouſie to keep up their ſuppoſed truths by ſuſpecting every thing that appeares for an enemy: My Anſwer was;ggExamination of the New Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 42. There is a iealouſie which the Apoſtle cal•godly iealouſie, and ſuch a one is that which would ſet up as many ſecurities as may be againſt hereſie, and impiety; among them Church-government is one; of which, they that ſtand for it are not afraid to let it go•abread, but have made it publique, and expoſed it to the view of all eyes. To this you put in a Reply with a condition of warrantable and Goſpel wayes of ſecuritie, and an exception of wicked wayes, ſuch as Herods killing all the young children, &c. I inſtanced onely in the Church-government, which the Presbyterians propound, and plead for as a Goſpel way; you bring in Herods bloody buſineſſe, as if there were neere conſanguinitie betwixt the Presbytery and his barbarous crueltie; this is (though not to ſlay innocents as he did yet) to wound and blaſt innocence, as much as may be, and to bring it under an evill ſuſpicion to make it odious; this is no Goſpel way Mr. Sa••m. but a very wide aberration from it.
73Smoke. Pag. 57.You ſay that ſome feare Gods anger for communion with heretiques, &c. you know all ſuch feare is onely warrantable in the Church, not in the world; you have liberate to withdraw and ſeparate, as they from you; if it be nationall or civill communion, then you plucke up the tares before the time of harveſt.
Light.You ſtill give me cauſe to complaine of your unfaithfull dealing with my words, by ſuch alteration, or omiſſion of them as may make them more obvious to your exception, then as I ſet them downe, for they are thus in my Booke;aaExam. of the New Quere. Sect. 12. p. 43. But there is it feare which we profeſſe, and I hope without offence, it is a feare of Gods anger, and of imminent danger for communion with, and connivence towards hereticall and wicked men; and I brought examples, and ſayings of John the Evangeliſt, of Polycarpe, Hilary, and Ierome to that purpoſe, which you take no notice of at all; but ſay, ſuch feare is onely warrantable in the Church, not in the world; but for that there is a remedy that men may ſeparate from Church-Communion; but what if many will not, as the weaker and looſer ſort are as ready to runne to hereticall Teachers, where they exerciſe, as the people of Iſrael to the Idolamous worſhip of the golden Calves; and ſhall ſuch be ſuffered to〈◊〉them that through the ignorance of their minds, or unrulineſſe of then luſts are willing to be ſeduced? Will your conſcience with the Papiſts tolerate the Stews, not in the Church, but in the Citie? it is not ſo broad, nor looſe I hope; no more ſhould it be ſo indulgent as to allow of inducements to ſpirituall whoredome,〈…〉 which is as dangerous to men, and more diſhonourable to God: The Angel of the Church of Epheſus, I am ſure, is commended by the Holy Ghoſt becauſe he could not beare them which were evill, Revel. 2.2. and for h•ting the deeds of the Nicolaitans, verſ. 6. as on the contrary the Angel of the Church of P••ga•••is blamed for ſuffering ſuch as held the Doctrine of Bala•m, and thoſe that held the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans, verſ. 12.14, 15. and ſo is the Angel of the Church of Thyatir•for ſuffering the woman J•••bal, which••lleth74 her ſelfe a Propheteſſe, to teach and ſeduce the ſervants of the Lord, verſ. 18.20. and if ſuch ſeducement may be as dangerous to many where heretiques teach in corners, as where they are admitted to officiate in publique Churches, that muſt be no more endured then the other.
And for that you ſay of plucking up the tares before the harveſt, it makes nothing againſt the caution I meane, which is not to extirpate all heretiques out of the world, but to put ſuch a reſtraint upon them, that they may not have power to ſeduce ſimple ſoules to ſuch pernicious errours as may endanger them upon eternall damnation; and yet I hope you doe not meane but ſome wicked men may be ſo wicked, and ſo deſtructive in their principles and practices to Religion, and States, that it may be lawfull not onely to keepe, or put them out of all Church-Communion, but to take them quite out of all communion in the world, by capitall puniſhment, elſe you will have the Civill Magiſtrate to beare the Sword for naught, againſt the determination of the Apoſtle, Rom. 13.
SECT. XXVI. Mr. Saltm. his dangerous ſuppoſition of equality of Number and power, with diverſitie of Religion; of incorporation of two powers; and what may be expected ſhould the Sectaries prevaile.
Smoke. Pag. 58.SƲppoſe thoſe you call hereticks, and who (as you ſay a littleaaSmoke. p. 57. before) thinke they have as good Scriptures to eſteeme you ſo, were of equall number to you; and both of you equally numbred with Magiſtrates.
Light.What cauſe or need in this difference betwixt you and me to take up ſuch a terrible ſuppoſition as you make? for there would have beene no ground of ſuſpition, if there had not been too much indulgence ſhewed to hereticall, and ſchiſmaticall ſeducers; and75 what doe you meane by ſuppoſing equalitie in number, power, and ſpirit for conteſtation about contrary opinions? is it to make the Preſbyterians beleeve that the partie they take to be hereticall is, or is like to be ſo many and maſterfull, that they will not ſuffer the Church Government to be ſettled without claſhing of ſwords, and bloody doings? Truly your courting of militarie men as you do, and others ſolicitations of them, and brags of their power and purpoſe may be a juſt ground of ſuſpitiō of ſo bad an intention in ſome of your ſide, which now plead for liberty of conſcience, that if they had might to their minds they would aſſert it with other inſtruments, and would ſecure it with circumſcription, if not preſcription, of the Civill power; as the King of Spaine did the liberty of election of the Emperour at Frankford (againſt King Francis the firſt King of France his competitor for the Empire) who ſent thither an Army of 30000 men, that the chooſers might be free and not forced,Guicciard. whereby he ſo overawed them that they durſt not make their choice but in the family of the houſe of Auſtria.
Smoke. Pag. 58.This is an image of your Incorporation of your two powers, that you ſo plead for in this kind.
Light.Now truly Sr. you are a very ſorry image-maker, that draw your picture ſo imperfectly, ſo groſly, like the rude Painters of old, who were fain to their miſhapen pourtraitures to adde an Inſcription, this is a man, and this is an horſe, or elſe a man could tell no more then a horſe what the pictures reſembled. If you had not told your Reader this is an image of your Incorporation, &c. he would never have thought you meant any ſuch thing by what you have ſaid; and now you have made your deſcription, and ſet your ſubſcription to it, it is yet ſo ſmokie and obſcure, that I doubt he cannot underſtand it, I am ſure I cannot perceive any truth or ſence in it: for what incorporation of powers doe we make and plead for? you ſhould have ſhewed what powers you meane, what incorporation of them we make, where and by what arguments76 we plead for it; till you doe this, I ſhall thinke your image a meere imagination, and a fantaſticall Chimera.
Smoke. Pag. 58.If we were equally principled for perſecution as you are, and alled by your ſpirit, ah what a Kingdome would here be?
Light.What principles of perſecution doe Presbyterians hold, ſet which they have not warrant from the word of God? all with you is perſecution which in any ſort oppoſeth your laviſh toleration of all Religions, though never ſo diſhonourable to God, and damnable to man; the godly party in the time of the Prelates cried out upon pluralities, and ſoule-murdering Non-reſidencie, accounting it an high and hainous crime in thoſe who withheld ſpirituall food from the ſoules of the people, and held that the State was bound to doe them right, to ſee them ſupplied with neceſſary proviſion for their ſalvation; and is there not a ſoule murdering by poyſoning the peoples ſoules with pernicious principles, as well as by withholding from them found and ſalutary Doctrine? and is not the State bound to provide againſt this ſpirituall perill, as well as the other? which if it may be done without drawing of a drop of blood, it is ſo much more pleaſing to conſciencious Presbyterians, as it is leſſe grievous to hereticall ſeducers; the wild beaſt may be kept and fedde within the grate, and the Fox confined to the length of a chaine, though they be not ſuffered to range abroad, and make havock on the flock. And how are they armed for perſecution of their adverſaries, when they not onely live, but thrive and flouriſh, and are advanced to places of honour and truſt all over the Kingdome.
If the Presbyterians were ſo ſpirited, and ſo armed with power as you pretend, how came the Independents to enjoy ſuch a proſperous condition as they doe? And for the perſecution of the Tongue and Pen, (for there may be words as keene and cutting as very ſwords) was there ever any ſo ſharpe and bitter as theirs, who, pretending to hate and perſecute perſecution, jeere and revile Presbyterie and Presbyters with ſo much virulence that all77 the ſcoffing Iſhmaelites, Lucians, Martin Marprelates (of which laſtaaJoſias Nichols in his Book called the Plea of the Innocent. Ioſias Nichols a godly Nonconformiſt ſaid he was ſtirred up by Satan to hinder the worke of Reformation) put together make not up the meaſure of their malignitie who plead for toleration of all Religions, as you doe, and whoſe ſpirit appeares to be ſo furious (though yours be more calme) that could they advance to the height of their hopes, and aimes, it is manifeſt by their owne written words, that they would not tolerate a Presbyterian, but would bring him under intolerable ſlavery; for they would have thebbSo in the Arraignment of Perſecution, p. 36. Printed by Martine Claw-Clergy Printer to the Reverend Aſſembly of Divines for Bartholomew Bang-Prieſt, and are to be ſold at his ſhop in Toleration ſtreet. Anno. 1645. Preſbyterian Tribe led in a ſtring from Weſtminſter to Algate in leatherne jackets, and mattocks on their ſhoulders, and the words that follow preſently after, and cloſe up the Paragraph are, they would doe the State better ſervice with their Canonicall girdles (which very few of them weare) were the knot tied in the right place, the words are no ſuch Riddle as to need an Oedipus to expound them; Sir, I will returne you your owne words againe, and let the Reader judge whether they were more fitly objected by you, or retorted by me. If we were equally principled and armed for perſecution, and acted by your ſpirit (yours who breath out ſuch threatnings and ſlaughters from Toleration ſtreet againſt Preſbyterians) ab what a Kingdome would here be?
SECT. XXVII. The Authoritie of the Parliament not pleaded by the Preſbyterians as a ſupplement of Scriptures, as Mr. Saltm. ſuggeſteth; nor ſlighted by them as by Mr. Saltm. it is; of the pretended danger of the Magiſtrates engagement with the Miniſters; of the pretended tenderneſſe of conſciences in Sectaries.
Smoke. Pag. 58.BƲt you cloſe up with that of the Lords and Commous in an Ordinance, &c. I am afraid thoſe are ſuch proofes as you intend moſt in your Preſbytery, to make your ſupplement of Scriptures by Authoritie78 — and to make us beleeve what you cannot perſwade us to beleeve, and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture.
Light.You had made it a matterccNew Quere. p. 8. of Popiſh and Prelaticall jealouſie, to keepe up their ſuppoſed truths by ſuspecting every thing that appeares for an enemie; WhereuponddExam. Sect. 12. p. 44. I ſhewed that there were other motives for oppoſing of Hereſie and Schiſme, (beſides ſuch a jealouſie) and I ſhewed it by inſtances of zeale againſt Hereticks in divers of the Ancients, and concluded with an Ordinance of Parliament of the 20. of October, 1645. wherein they endeavour for the compleat eſtabliſhment of purity and unitie in the Church of God; hereupon you ſay, you are afraid theſe are ſuch proofes as we intend moſt in our Preſbyterie; proofes for what? If you take it for conſtitution of a Presbyterie, we have proved that by Scripture before it was offered to the Parliament; if for execution, you muſt either intend it of an Ordinance of Parliament, to enable us to ſet up the Presbyterie, or for the particular proceedings in the Preſbyterie; If you meane it of the former, we muſt urge the Ordinance of Parliament for it; if any one queſtion it in a Civill Title, we muſt plead it by ſuch a warrant as the Ordinance; if for the particular proceedings, they muſt have ſuch profes and evidence as in other caſes of difference, by perſonall conteſtation.
Smoke. Pag. 58.But I hope that Honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture againſt us, then from their Authoritie.
Light.Doe you hope then that the Parliament will not eſtabliſh the Presbyterie by their Authoritie? or if they doe, that we will make no uſe of their Ordinance, to maintaine the puritie and unitie which that Honourable Senate intended, againſt the confuſion of Hereſie and Schiſme? If ſo, I doubt not but you will be deceived in both; and yet Sir the Presbyterian cauſe will be made good againſt the whole circumference of Sects, who Center in Independency, for toleration of multiplicity of profeſſions in matter of Religion.
79Smoke. Pag. 58.But I have not to doe here with anſwer of Ordinances of Parliament. I contend not, but ſubmit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords ſake; nor doth my Argument lye againſt any thing of theirs, but yours: I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties, but Iudges, in our difference I appeale to the Parliament as to Caeſar; nor is it a faire proofe of truth to draw the Magiſtrates ſword out of the ſcabbard.
Light.But I have not to doe with an Ordinance of Parliament, ſay you, you might have let it alone; I laid no ſuch weight of Argument upon it, as did engage you to anſwer it. Now whereas you ſay, you ſubmit to them in every Ordinance, it is but a complement, for were you ſerious and ſincere in this you profeſſe, would you doe as you, doe cry down Tythes as Antichriſtian, which the Parliament by Ordinance hath eſtabliſhed? or cry up ſuch a libertie of conſcience, and Preaching without Ordination, as they by Ordinance have forbidden? I could put the ſame Quere upon other particulars, wherein you make no more ſcruple in practiſe to goe croſſe to the Parliament, then in your words to contradict me.
Yet you ſay, you dare not undervalue them as to make them parties but Judges in our difference: Then their Authoritie muſt decide the difference; and if the deciſion ſtick on your ſide, will you not accept, or make uſe of it to countenance your cauſe againſt us? you will not, you cannot deny it; why then ſhould you ſay in your next words, It is no faire proofe of truth to draw the Magiſtrates ſword out of the ſcabbard: If they be Iudges, as you call them, and appeal be made unto them, (as by you it is) why ſhould you impute it as a faulty drawing of the Magiſtrates ſword out of the ſcabbard to produce their ſentence, or make uſe of their Authority?
Smoke. Pag. 59.You wonder conſidering who was engaged I would ſo undervalue them, to compare them with Papiſts and Prelates.
Light.You wonder? aaMy Exam. of your New. Quere. Sect. 12. pag. 44.I ſaid, If you had well conſidered who were engaged for the eſtabliſhment of Church Government, and how farre, before you publiſhed your New Quere, you would not ſure have ſo farre undervalued their piety and prudence, as to compare them with Papiſts and Papall Prelates.
Of theſe words you have made a wonder; you have not onely much freedome of fancy, but a great libertie of conſcience to amplifie, or extenuate, or exchange the words of your adverſarie as you pleaſe; and you doe it ſo often, as to make your credulous Reader, who doth not examine whether you have cited my Examination aright, to conceive that you have anſwered, yea conquered in the Controverſie; when you have but ſlandered my Text, declined the ſtrength of it, ſmoked the light of it, and confounded the order of it, and gotten the victory onely of your own abuſive allegation, or interpretation thereof.
Smoke. Pag. 59.I did confider who was engaged, a Parliament, &c. and had I not highly valued them, I had not ventured ſo farre in my Quere.
Light.Not ſo farre as to oppoſe, retard, and reproach the Church Government, wherein they were ſo farre, ſo publiquely engaged; is this to value them, to value them highly? if ſuch be the price you ſet upon ſuch Honourable Patriots, I ſhall never be ambitious of your good acceptation, nor ſolicitous of your eſtimation of me, whether the rate you ſet upon me be pretious or vile.
Smoke. Pag. 59.I conſidered the fatall troubles which attended the Magiſtrates engagements with the Miniſters.
Light.If the Miniſters engagements in Religion be right, it is a happineſſe that Magiſtrates be engaged with them, and therefore on81 the one ſide promiſed as matter of great joy, and glory to the Church, that Kings ſhould be unto it as nurſing Fathers, and Queenes as nurſing Mothers, Iſa. 49.23. and on the other required as a dutie to pray for Kings and for all that are in authority, that we may lead a quiet life in all godlineſſe and honeſty, 1 Tim. 2.2. and in all Ages to this day the orthodoxe party have much deſired the Patronage of Princes and civill States in their Religious miniſtrations, as a meanes to propagate the Goſpel in the power and puritie of the Ordinances of Chriſt; and if the Parliament ſhould (which the Lord forbid) yeeld to ſuch a toleration of Religions as you propound, I would know whether you would not deſire the ſecurity of State for that licence you luſt after, if any ſhould oppoſe you therein; and would you not have the power that granted it engage ſo farre, as to make it good unto you, and to ſuppreſſe thoſe who would debarre you of the libertie allowed you? We know the ſpirit of your partie by their ſpeeches, and ſome practiſes ſo well, that we doubt not of this, and we have cauſe rather to beleeve that you would not waite upon the Magiſtrates leiſure, to right you in ſuch a caſe, if you had power for more ſpeedy remedy in your owne hands.
Smoke. Pag. 59.And I conſidered the bloud which hath beene poured out by Nationall compulſion of teader conſciences.
Light.In what Nation doe you meane? if in England, as I ſuppoſe you doe, either onely or chiefly, I confeſſe that in the time of Popiſh Tyranny there was much blood poured out of the ve••es of ſuch as had tender conſciences, ſo tender that they could endure death more willingly then Idolatry. And I deny not but the domination of the Starchamber, and the High Commiſſion were very Tyrannicall, and injurious to tender conſciences, and very bloody (eſpecially the Starchamber) to the porſons of ſuch as came under their cenſure; for I have read the reports of the cruel uſager of Mr. Prim••, Dr. Baſtwick•, and Mr. Burton; and truly Sir, I could not but be affected with compaſſion towards Mr. Lilburne,82 and with indignation towards his perſecutors (though he have often bewrayed a bitter ſpirit by many diſdainfull contumelies againſt them) upon the reading of the late Relation of his ſufferings proved before the Right Honourable the Houſe of Peeres, Feb. 13. 1645. wherein it is teſtified thataaPag. 3. he was whipped from Fleet bridge to Weſtminſter ſo cruelly, that the cords bruiſed his ſhoulders, and made them ſwell as bigge as a penny leafe, and wheales on his backe bigger then a Tobacco-pipe; and that the Warden of the Fleet cauſed him to be gagged in ſuch a cruell manner as if he would have torne his jawes in pieces.
But did not the Parliament ſo farre abominate the Tyranny of theſe Courts as utterly to depoſe them, and to exclude the Biſhops out of the Houſe of Peers? and will you compare their engagements for the puritie and unitie of a reformed Religion, and Government, with the intolerable-Tyranny of ſuch mercileſſe oppreſſours?
And for the tender conſciences ſo much, ſo plauſibly pleaded for by you, and your partie, many who had good meanes to know Sectaries, and no bad minds to miſ-report of them, finde that for a few tender conſciences among them, there are many leprous, ulcerous, blinded, hardned, and cauterized conſciences; to which if the State ſhould be ſo tender as you would have them, it would be cruell to farre better Chriſtians.
SECT. XXVIII. What a Trumpeter Mr. Saltm. is; his reproach of the Parliament plaine enough, though rather implied then expreſſed; A challenge of him to prove his inſinuated ſuggeſtions of Treaſon, Blaſphemie, &c. in my Examination of his New Quere.
Smoke. Pag. 59.ANd like a ſpirituall watchman I could not but blow my Trumpet.
Light.The premiſes conſidered, your Trumpet is as the Trumpet of Sheba the ſonne of Bichri ſounded to ſedition, a Sam. 20.1.
Smoke. Pag. 59.And for my compariſon of Papiſts and Prelates, I appeale to the world if there be any reproach, whether it be not in the Interpreter rather then in the Authour.
Light.For my compariſon of Papiſts and Prelates, If you compare Papiſts and Prelates, it is not ſo great a reproach to Prelates for the moſt part to be matched with Papiſts, as for the Presbyterians to be likened to the worſt of either, as you make the compariſon; but you ſhould have ſaid further, for my reſemblance of ſuch as deſire and endeavour the ſpeedy ſetting up of Government to Papiſts and Prelates (for ſo you made it in your Quere, p. 8.) I appeale (not to the world, that is too wide a compaſſe for a Iudicatory as well as for a Church, but) to the ingenuous and impartiall Reader, whether the Parliament, making as much haſte as they can to finiſh the Governement, that they may eſtabliſh it by their civill Sanction, be not implicitly taken into that imputation; and let him judge alſo whether the reproach be in the Authour or in the Interpreter.
Smoke. Pag. 59.If it be lawfull, ſay you, to draw in conſequent concluſions, and then father them, I could prove you to ſpeake Treaſon, Blasphemie, Idolatry, Atheiſme, Hereſie, nay Independency, which ſome of you may thinke worſe, Anabaptiſme, Separation, which would ſeeme to be as hatefull to you; but I judge you not in any ſuch ſort; nor had I ſpoken ſo farre now, but in a juſt vindication.
Light.If it be lawfull? why ſhould you doubt of it, but that it is lawfull? If I have any premiſes which you can make parents to bring forth ſuch corrupt and criminall concluſions, ſpare me not Sir; nay84 I challenge you to lay downe your antecedent in my words, and bring in your conſequent of Treaſon, Blaſphemie, Idolatry. Atheiſme, &c. out of them; which if you can doe by any faire and unforced deduction, I will take you for an unerring Oracle, and follow you with an implicit faith, with punctuall obſervance and imitation of you whitherſoever you goe, through all your vatiations of Hereſie, and Schiſme, though you ramble all over the Catalogue of them, as Irenaeus, Epiphanius, Philaſtrius, Brixlenſit, and Auguſtine of old, or any later Haereſiographers have ſet them forth; but if you cannot doe this, (as I know you cannot) with what conſcience do you give out a ſuſpition, or inſinuation of ſuch abominable guilt? what an ungodly guile is this? how far from the Chriſtian charitie of a man pretending the ſpirit of meekneſſe, and moderation, as you doe? aaSmoke. p. 2. nu. 3.Let a ſpirit of meekneſſe (ſay you) runne in the Artery of Preaching and Printing; how farre from finceritie, to raiſe ſuch a ſmoke of infamie and reproach upon the reputation of him whom you ſtyle ſometimesbbIn the Inſcription of your Letter. a Friend, ſometimesccSmoke. p. 26. a Brother, and to whom you profeſſe a threefold reſpect for his age, learning, and place, in your Letter unto him? this ſ•rely is the beame in your eyeddYour Letter to me. p. b. you ſpake of, while you are curious to take out the mote in mine eye; and for that you ſay of Independencie worſe thought of then Treaſon, Blaſphemie, Idolatrie, Atheiſme, &c. I know no Presbyterian that thinks ſo of Independencie, ut ſic, abſtractively, but conſidering the concurrence of many dangerous and damnable opinions with it, and their protection and propagation by it, it may perhaps be truly ſaid, that Independencie extenſively, comprehenſively, and effectively, though not formally, or intenſively may be worſo then other errouts, or hereſies, forced under that ſuppoſed golden head, or embraced in its••ver〈◊〉, though they be at the beſt but as the belly and thighs of braſſe; and at the worſt as legges of iron, and feet in part of iron, in part of clay, as in Nebuchadnezzars Image, Dan. 2. verſ. 32, 33.
I ſhould require and expect your ingenuous acknowledgement of this injurious and uncharitable charge, but that you have directed me to another remedie of the wrong you doe me; where you ſay in your Epiſtle to me, If you finde any paſſions in my Booke,85 charge them upon mine unregenerate part, for I finde that when I would doe good evill is preſent with me.
According to this diſtinction a female diſciple of ſome Antinomian Teacher (who would be thought too good a Chriſtian to be a member of any Congregation that met in a Steeple-houſe) made her evaſion from an accuſation of theſe; for when her Miſtreſſe charged her for ſtealing her linnens, and other things, which ſhe found in her cheſt, or trunck, ſhe denied that ſhe ſtole them; and when ſhe asked how came they to be laid and locked up there, Did not you doe this? No, ſaid ſhe. It was not I, but ſinne that dwelleth in me.
That this is no tale fained, or taken up on truſt to reproach ſuch profeſſours as pretend to an extraordinarie ſtraine of Evangelicall perfection, but a true ſtorie, will be made good by evidence beyond exception to ſuch as ſhall queſtion the truth thereof: But whether true, or falſe, you will haply ſay, what is this to you? Truly ſo much as her excuſe for her theeverie hath the more conformitie with your excuſe for your calumnie; but I bring it in but occaſionally, and it is more pertinent I confeſſe to mind you of your owne faults then of others.
Smoke. Pag. 59.You ſay you will conclude with my Politicks, &c. The Anſwer to this ſee in the Epiſtle.
SECT. XXIX. The charge of miſapplication of Revel. 18.1. iuſtified againſt Mr. Saltm. his deniall. The expectation of new lights which ſome Sectaries teach, Papiſticall, fallacious, and dangerous.
Smoke. Pag. 59.YOu ſay of my Text, Revel. 18.1. that at I began, ſo I and, with miſapplication of Scripture; Miſapplication is a word ſooner86 writ then proved, and my reſons were rather crowded then ordered in my paper; the Scripture was this, For the Angel that came downe from heaven hath great power, and the earth is lightned with his glory.
Light.If you would cleare the Scripture from miſapplication, you muſt ſhew how it came in with a for, as a reaſon of the precedent paſſage: your next words before it are, The Gospel dares walke abroad with boldneſſe, and ſimplicity, when traditions of men like melancholy people feare every thing they meet will kill them; and then immediately (not a word betweene) you ſay, For the Angel that comes downe from heaven hath great power, and the earth is lightned with his glory.
If this be not a miſapplication of Scripture, I adde further, if it be not an abſurd one, and your defence of it ridiculouſly vaine, and your appeale to the Reader a preſumption, that you take him to be very ſtupid, or ſo fond as to follow you in all you ſay with an implicit faith, let the judicious and impartiall Reader judge.
Smoke. Pag. 59.Which Scripture there applied doth hint to any that will not rather cavill then interpret, that my reaſon for delay of Government was in this; An Angel was yet to come.
Light.You ſaid before your reaſons were rather crowded then ordered, (though I know not why you ſhould put your ſelfe into ſuch a precipitation of haſte) If ſo, it is not ſtrange they ſhould be miſplaced, and thoſe caſt behind which ſhould come before, as in a crowd it falleth out. And truly for this teſtimonie, and the reaſon of it, with what went afore it, it comes in a great deale too late to be pertinently applied; for you had ended your reaſons, (ſuch as they were) for the delay of Government a good while before, and now were at the end of your ſecond Objection, where there was roome enough, before you looſed your Pen from Paper, to have made a reference of that Text to its proper place, and to have told your Reader what you meant by it as now you doe; and87 then I ſhould have told you that that Text is as much miſapplied for want of truth, had it come in where it might ſeeme to be moſt certaine, as here for want of ſenſe and ſutableneſſe to the precedent words. For,
The Government of the Church is, (as you have acknowledged before) a Scripture Government; and unleſſe you waite for an Angel from heaven to bring another Goſpel, who by the doome of the Apoſtle, ſhould he come, ſhould be welcomed with a curſe, Gal. 1.8. you muſt not looke for another Goſpel Government; if you refuſe the Scripture light in expectation of Evangelicall Revelations, take heed you comply not with the Papiſts, (whom you pretend to abhorre) makingaaBellarm. de notis Eccleſ. Tom. 2. l. 4. c. 15. p. 278. Propheticall light or revelation a note of the Church, and pretending Revelations frombbLegend. aur. fol. 255. p. 1. col. 1. Portifer. ſeu Breviar. in uſum Eccleſ. Satisbur. part Estrval. in Festum Sri. Egid. Sept. 1. lect. 9. printed Paris pervid. Franciſc. Regnault. an. 1555. Thelmes of the Saints out of Villegas & Ribad. vol. 1. part. 1. p. 87, 88, 98. Angels. And if you ſay your Brethren the Anabaptiſts have their revelations, and many others beſides them talke of new lights. I doubt they are for the moſt part but like your Book, which offers Smoke for light, and ſome of them very deſtructive illuſions of Satan; as that of the Anabaptiſt ofccSleydan Comment. ad an. 1527. l. 6. fol. 87. b. Sangalli a Towne of Helvetia, who cut off his owne Brothers head in his parents preſence, telling them it was revealed to him, and commanded him of God, he ſhould do ſo; and none of them ſuch as may be a rule of direction to any ſocietie of pious, and prudent men, much leſſe to thoſe by whoſe Authoritie the Government is to be ſet up, and ſettled throughout the whole Kingdome.
Smoke. Pag. 59.An Angel was yet to come with power and glory.
Light.The Angel whereof John prophecie was to come after his time, but now about ſixteene hundred yeeres are paſſed ſince he had that viſion, and how can you ſay he is yet to come, in reſpect of the time wherein we have this debate? what Angel or Spirit hath ſtood by you, as by Paul, and told you that we muſt yet expect ſuch an Angel to come, and when he will come? that when he comes he will bring a revelation of Church Government with him, which hath been kept all this while in the darke?88 if you have any warrant, any good ground for ſuch a viſion, and revelation from heaven, ſhew it; it is a matter of too great moment to be taken upon truſt, upon your bare word, or of any mans alive; and it may be Sir you may waite for this Angel as long as the Iewes have done for another Meſſias, and at laſt faile of your expectation as they have done, and for ever muſt doe.
Smoke. Pag. 59.Or the Goſpel will fill the earth with more light.
Light.You ſent forth your Dawnings of light the laſt yeare, but in ſtead of faire day light next to follow, you preſent us with a Smoke; what Goſpel-light you meane is too darke to me, and it may be alſo to your ſelfe; If you meane the new lights that Sectaries bragge of, they are, and I bele•ve all Scripture-learned Chriſtians will take them but for the glimmerings of an ignis fatuus, ſome illuſive flaſhes from the ſhining of Satan, when he puts on his holy-day habit, and preſents himſelfe as in the apparition of an Angel of light, 2 Cor. 11.14.
To me they repreſent the juggling impoſture of a Popiſh Prieſt, of whom Eraſmus writes in one of his Epiſtles, that he got together many Crab-fiſhes, and tied pieces of Wax candles lighted at their clawes, who crawling up and downe in the Church-yard in the night, made the lights moveable to and fro; and the ſimple people ſeeing them at diſtance, (for they durſt not come neere them) the Prieſt made them beleeve they were ſoules come from Purgatorie, which needed and craved the prayers of good people for their releaſe. As many as have not their eye ſight hurt by your Smoke (for Solomon ſheweth, Prov. 10.26. and experience complaines of it as ill for the eyes,) will take many of the new lights, ſo much talked and boaſted of by divers of your partie, rather for ſuch falſe illuſions, then for true illuminations.
Smoke. Pag. 59.So as we ſhould not ſhut up our ſelves too ſoone in the darke; And89 now Reader judge whether it be my miſ-application or his miſ-interpretation,
Light.That we might not be ſhut up too long in the darke, I have brought all this light of truth to diſpell your vapour of errour, and ſlander; and now I may, I doubt not, the premiſes conſidered, and judiciouſly weighed, conclude, as you doe, with an addreſſe to the Reader, but with a neceſſary tranſmutation of your termes, Now Reader judge whether miſ-interpretation be not a word ſooner ſaid then proved, as well as miſ-application, and whether it be my miſ-interpretation, or his miſ-application. Here he ends his exceptions againſt me; and here I fixe my period of Apology againſt them.