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Which is the Quakers Defence againſt the Boaſter and his deceitfull ſlanders.

Clearly ſeen in an ANSWER to a BOOK called QƲAKERS QƲAKING; Deviſed by Jeremiah Ive's againſt the diſpiſed contemptible people trampled on by the world, and ſcorned by the ſcorners.

In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers boſome, and the truth cleared from the accuſer.

In much plainneſſe, that the ſimple may ſee and per­ceive, and come to be gathered to the Lamb, from amongſt the Armies of the wicked, who have now ſet themſelves againſt the Lord, and ſees it not.

Alſo ſome Queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his falſe Doctrine and Deceits.

By one who is called, JAMES NAYLER.

LONDON: Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black-ſpread-Eagle, near the Weſt end of Pauls. 1656.


WEAKNESSE ABOVE WICKEDNESSE, AND Truth ABOVE Subtilty. Which is the Quakers Defence againſt the Boaſter and his deceitfull ſlanders.Clearly ſeen in an ANSVVER to a Book called Quakers Quaking, Deviſed by Jeremy Ive's againſt the diſpiſed contemp­tible people trampled on by the world, and ſcorned by the ſcorners.

WELL knew the Apoſtle what he ſaid when he deſired the Saints prayers that he might be delivered from Men without faith, for he well knew them above all others to be the moſt unreaſonable. And the ſame is ſeen in thee Jeremy Ive's, who having denyed the faith of God, which is the gift of God in his Saints, and ſet up a faith of thine own, which is not the gift of God, and therein hath ſet2 up in thy vaine Phyloſophy, and deceitfull craft wherewithall thou art become ſo unreaſonable, as not only to uſe thy crafty reaſon in broaching deceitful blaſphemous doctrins, denying the faith of God, once received of the Saints, & contending againſt it, not to be the gift of God, as thou didſt at Gerrard Roberts before many witneſſes; But alſo uſing thy craft to reaſon a­gainſt the truth of God, manifeſt in his Saints, the Light of the world manifeſt in the world, in which all the world may be a witneſs againſt thee, yea againſt the plaine expreſſe words of the Scripture, as will appear in this thy Book, yea againſt Chriſt himſelfe, who is that Spirit, whereby to ſet up another for judgement, as by thy reaſoning at Gerrard Roberts be­fore many people, where thou ſaid, that a man may under­ſtand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God, and ſo try the Spirits, and went about to prove it with thy curſed art; which thing to affirme, in plainneſſe and truth, is to deny the Spirit of Chriſt for to be the Teacher, Judger and Tryer of all Spi­rits, and to ſet up the ſpirit of the Devill in its ſtead, for he that tryeth and judgeth without the Spirit of God doth it with the ſpirit of Satan; and with that Spirit did the Scribes and Phariſees (who denyed the gift of God as thou doſt) un­derſtand the Scriptures, and try the Spirit of Jeſus, and Judged him to be a Devill, and a Deceiver, as thou doſt ſuch in whom he is manifeſt, for which end thou haſt muſtered up this heap of filth and lies, in thy Book, to caſt upon the truth, and make it odious; and the greateſt ſtrength thou haſt in this thy work is thy vaine Phyloſophy, and craft, with which thou reaſons againſt the Truth both in the Saints now manifeſt, and againſt the plaine Scriptures.

Which things may ſo plainly be ſeen to be but a heap of ſubtilty, where the leaſt honeſty may judge thereof; ſo that there is little danger of its doing any hurt, where the leaſt mea­ſure of innocency is minded: ſo I ſhall not much trouble my ſelfe in the anſwering every particular, of thy vaine ſtories, ſlanders, and lies, onely ſome few I ſhall ſpeak too as may ſerve to diſcover the reſt what root they are of.

Thou commends thy Work to thy Brethren, whom thou calls the Churches of Chriſt called to be faithfull, &c. And3 thou ſayes thou knowes none to whom thy work will be more welcome. I ſay, if they be Brethren of thy Faith, who with thee have denyed the Faith of Chriſt and ſet up a Faith of their own; then it is like that thy work ſhould be moſt welcome unto ſuch, whoſe faith is to believe lyes, for the Devills Faith is moſt fit to receive and welcome the Devills work. And thou tells of raiſing the ſiege laid by the Adverſaries to your Faith, and order: I ſay, fitly are theſe two put together, be­ing neither the Faith nor order of the Saints, nor that which the Scripture will own, neither your faith, nor practice; And he that is a friend of God, muſt be an Enemy of that which is not the gift of God, and that which is not the gift of God be­ing gotten by the Devill, That we deny.

Firſt, Thou begins about our Quaking, whether we may be ſo called or no, about which I ſhall not contend, what Name we receive from the world, whether they call us that which is true, or that which is not true, the thing to me I paſſe by; onely I mind thee of a lye thou telleſt (becauſe thou ſeems to promiſe repentance being better inform'd) that is, that we foame at the mouth in our Tremblings, in our meet­ings; but to them that are blind thou ſeems to prove it before thou leave it; and that is becauſe it was caſt upon us in the Weſtmorland Prieſts Petition and we did not deny it, though we denyed ſome other things in that Petition: which proofe is but thus much that if I leave any of thy lies undenyed which thou haſt heaped up in this thy Book, the next of thy Brethe­ren that comes after thee to accuſe us may make it a proofe that we are guilty thereof, and ſo the lyar proves to the ly­ar, whilſt the Innocent are ſilent: And with ſuch proofes as this haſt thou proved many of thy ſlanders in thy Book, which might as clearly be ſhewed was it worth the while to follow thee into all thy deceits, but a few may ſerve to lead the wiſe to ſee the reſt.

The next thing thou accuſeſt, is our Doctrine, and thou confeſſeſt we preach ſomewhat that is true, yet ſayeſt thou, in this they are but the greater Deceivers. And finding nothing of the truth we preach thou dareſt accuſe, thou makes a lye of thine own to accuſe us with, that is, that we will allow of no­thing4 to be called Gods Word but Chriſt, and having caſt this upon us, thou goes about to diſprove it, and ſo diſproves thy own lye, and not our Doctrine, ſo it being thine own work I ſhall leave it to thee.

The next thing thou charges upon us, is that we ſay the Scripture may not be called the word of God, which is falſe alſo (as in thy ſence) for we own the Scripture where it is gi­ven to any by the inſpiration of God to be the word to ſuch, but to others who have it not of God, they may read the let­ter and not hear the word, and have a Bible and be without the word and in this reſpect and no other doe we deny many who would make the letter the word, which thou wouldſt do, did none know better then to believe thee; and not onely ſo, but would ſtop the mouth of God from ſpeaking any more in his people, or us for confeſſing to his word in us, at which thou wrangles with words not worth heeding.

Thy third Errour thou charges us with, is that we ſay we are immediatly ſent of God, and that thou canſt not re­ceive, and yet art not aſhamed to count me a lyar for ſaying, That I coming in the name of God thou couldſt not receive me, but if I had come in my own name thou couldeſt.

But what ſpirit thou art of, and of whoſe meſſage thou goeſt, is plainly ſeen, who ſets it down as an Error to ſay they are ſent of God, doth not thou herein juſtifie the falſe Prophets who run unſent? and would not thou have condemned the true Prophets, and Apoſtles, as thou doſt us, had thou lived in their dayes? who ſaid they were ſent of God, and did not work Miracles in the ſight of all they preacht to, which thou requireſt or elſe thou wilt not believe, but the Devills faith could never believe Gods Meſſengers with Miracles nor with­out Miracles; its not like thou ſhouldeſt believe any that is ſent of God who denies that Faith which is the gift of God, and ſo calls that error which all the Miniſters of Chriſt doth own, and that which thou calls error we own, and make proof thereof in our meaſures, as they did in patience in afflictions, in neceſſities and diſtreſſes, in ſtripes and Impriſonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings and faſtings, &c. and in5 turning people from their in quities, which thou falſly ſayes is not a ſingne of a Miniſter of Chriſt.

Then thou goes on a deceitfull ſtory, glorying in lyes, ad­ding words that was never ſpoken, and diminiſhing truth to make thy ſelfe a cover with a lye, concerning our diſputes, but doth not ſpeak the truth, as to thine own blaſphemous Here­ſies which thou affirmed and went about to maintaine at Ger­rard Roberts our firſt meeting, and at other places which thy deceit hides, ſuch as theſe following (to wit) thou affirmed, be­fore many witneſſes, That Faith by which men are ſaved is not the gift of God, That a man may underſtand the Scrip­tures without the Spirit of God, and ſo try Spirits, That all good is not of God, That the obedience of believers is not the gift of God, That the Law was not given forth by Chriſt, That Chriſt was not the Miniſter of Circumciſion, That none was baptized with the holy Ghoſt but who wrote Miracles, That John Baptiſt went not out of Jeruſalem to Baptize, That the Wilderneſſe in which John baptized was in Jeruſalem, That Jordan in which John did baptize was in Jeruſalem, That whoſoever ſpeaks that which they to whom he ſpeaks doe not underſtand he is a foole and a Barbarian, Thou ſaid alſo that thou could foretel things to come, and yet was not baptized with the Spirit.

Of which Errors I writ to thee in a Letter preſently after, but could never receive an anſwer thereof. Alſo thy other deceits holden forth at the Bull and Mouth, which were ſuch as theſe.

That Chriſt lighteth every man that cometh into the world, but this light was not within.

That the Heathen had a light that convinc't them of ſin, but this light was not within them.

That Chriſt took away the ſin of every Man that cometh into the world.

Hadſt thou intended honeſty, thou ſhouldſt have publiſhed the whole Truth, but it is the way of the Author of thy faith to cover himſelfe with lyes; but it is, but that he may be laid open where he is, and that truth may diſcover other of thy lyes, and old ſtories, of Auſtin the Monk, Gregory the Pope,6 and the King of Kent, which are things more fit to rot then to be raked in, I paſſe them by as moſt ſutable to returne them back into the bottle from whence they came.

And leaſt thou ſhouldſt deny that I ſent thee ſuch a letter, which thou never anſwered, I ſhall here publiſh a Copy there­of, that thou may anſwer it in thy next, and others may ſee I have not wronged thee, which Letter is as followeth.

Jeremy Ive's,

THY blaſphemous deceitfull Doctrines wherewith thou leads ſimple people into confuſion and deſtruction, I am moved to put thee in mind of, that if thou be not wilfully blind thou mayſt ſee thy ſelfe out of the power of God, yea and out of the forme of the ſound words in the letter alſo, as appeared in thy diſcourſe when I was with thee, ſome of the particulars whereof I ſhall mention, as thou didſt affirme them before many witneſſes.

Firſt, Thou ſaidſt that a man may underſtand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God, and ſo try the Spirits.

But the Scripture ſaith, Without Chriſt you can doe no­thing;John 15. 5. John 5. 30. 1 Cor. 2. and ſaith, that Chriſt could doe nothing of himſelfe; and that the naturall man cannot know the things of the Spi­rit of God, becauſe they are ſpiritually diſcerned; and that no man knows the things of God, but the Spirit of God, and that the Spirit ſearcheth, Judges, and reveals all the things of God, &c. And thy tryall of Spirits by the letter without theActs 13. 27. Spirit, is the ſame by which Chriſt was tryed by the Phariſees, who read the Scripture of the Prophets every Sabbath, but not underſtanding their voyces, by the letter put him to death, and thou art not wiſer without the Spirit of God then they was, and ſo art found an enemy to him as they was, and in the ſame Spirit.

Thou ſaid alſo, That the Faith by which we are ſaved, is not the gift of God.

But the Scripture ſaith, By Grace you are ſaved throughEpheſ. 2. 8. Faith, not of your ſelves, it is the gift of God; and that7 Chriſt is the author and finiſher of the Saints faith; and eve­ryH b 12 2. James 1 17. John 3. 27. 2. Cor 4 13 Jude 3. Heb. 11. 1. good gift comes from above from the father of light, and that a man can receive nothing except it be given him from a­bove, and that the Saints had the Spirit of Faith, and that the ſaith to ſalvation was delivered to the Saints, and that Faith is the ſubſtance of things hoped.

And thou ſayeſt it is not the gift of God; ſo thy Faith which is not the gift of God is the Faith of the De­vill, and from him thou haſt received it, who haſt not received it from God, whereof thou mayſt read James 3.

Thou ſayedſt alſo that the obedience of Believers is not the gift of God.

But the Scripture ſaith, that the Saints obedience was1 Pet 1. 2. Iſa. 26. 12. Phil 2. 13. Phil 2 13. 1 Pet. 1. 22. John 3. 21 through the ſanctification of the Spirit and ſprinkling of the blood of Jeſus, and that it was God who wrought all their works in them, to will and to doe of his good pleaſure, and without Chriſt they could nothing; and the Saints, obedience was through the Spirit, and the works of the Children of light are wrought in God: but thy works and thy obedience which thou haſt not received from God are none of Chriſts and therefore thine own, and ſo ſelfe righteouſneſſe.

Thou ſayedſt that whoſoever ſpeaks what thoſe doe not underſtand to whom he ſpeaks, is a foole and a Barbarian.

Whereas the Scripture ſaith that Chriſt ſpoke many thingsLuke 18. 34. & 2. 50. & 9. 45. John 10. 6. & 12. 16. in Parables, which were not underſtood by them that heard him, nay his Diſciples underſtood none of thoſe things, for his ſayings were hid from them in many things, neither under­ſtood they the things which were ſpoken. So thou mayſt read thy blaſphemy and what Spirit thou art of who by thy deceit­full vaine Phyloſophy would prove Chriſt a foole, and blaſ­pheme that Spirit which ſpoke the Parables in Scripture to ſuch as thee, and your carnall underſtanding.

Thou ſayedſt, none were baptized with the Holy Ghoſt, but who wrought Miracles. A thing far beyond thy proofe, for Miracles were to ceaſe, but ſo was not the baptiſme of the Spirit, though at firſt they were given becauſe of Unbelie­vers; What Miracles wrought Timothy or Titus? and what Miracles did they of Samaria ſpoken on Acts 8. or theſe Be­lievers8 of Rome? and many other that might be mentioned, ſhewing thy untruth and ignorance as to the gift of the Holy Ghoſt: But how ſhouldeſt thou now know the effects of the Holy Ghoſt who haſt not received him? as thou didſt confeſſe before the people that thou waſt not baptized of the Holy Ghoſt, and ſo thou madeſt it appear by thy fruits; who ſaidſt, That all good is not of God, That Chriſt was not a Miniſter of the Circumciſion, That the Law was not given forth by Chriſt, That John went not out of Jeruſalem to baptize, and when I told thee he baptized in Jordan and in the Wilder­neſſe, thou ſayedſt that Wilderneſſe was in Jeruſalem and Jordan alſo.

Thou ſayedſt alſo, Thou couldeſt fore-tell things to come, and yet denyed the Baptiſme of the Spirit; to which I told thee then and tell thee againe, that to fore-tell things to come without the Spirit of God is witchery.

And much more ſuch like ſtuffe thou utteredſt which thou haſt gathered in by thine imaginations, which are lies and de­ceits, whereby thou leadeſt blind people into errour, keeping them from the teachings of the Spirit in thy traditions, which is neither according to ſpirit nor letter, as is plaine in theſe things in thy water-baptiſme, wherein thou art erred from that in the letter, both in thy call, in the manner, and in the end thereof, as it was practiſed by the Apoſtles.

For they that were called to baptize were firſt called out of their habitations, and made proofe of to be Diſciples of Chriſt by denying all and following him, and they were none of them living in their worldly eſtates as thou doſt, and they were either Prophets or Apoſtles immediately called from the Lord to that work, and did not take it up by imitation as thou doſt, and ſo thou art neither in their call, place, nor power, who haſt not left all to follow Chriſt, nor haſt received the Holy Ghoſt.

And as to the manner, they did not baptize thoſe over a­gaine with water that were baptized before, but baptized ſuch with the Holy Ghoſt, which thou haſt not thy ſelfe by thine own confeſſion.

And as to the end, they did not goe amongſt Believers and9 by their water divide them into Seperations as you have done by your water, who have ſet up ſo many formes of Baptiſms, till you have devided thoſe who had ſome ſimplicity in them into Sects and Opinions concerning your water, till you have left the Spirit, and are left in conformity to the world in weightier things.

Neither did they limit the Spirit of God to the water, as you doe who deny any to Propheſie in that you call your Churches, till you have dipt them or ſprinkled them over againe after your faſhion. Neither did they lay it as a thing of abſolute neceſſity upon all; But they went among ſuch that did not believe that Chriſt was come, and made them Diſciples before baptizing them out of unbeliefe, out of Sects and Opi­nions and Diviſions, gathering them out of all Formes Cere­monies and worſhips into one faith, one body, one light, one way, one baptiſme; which yours ends in the quite contrary, ſetting up formes, and diviſions, and opinions, and rents, and contentions about your carnall water, ſcattering abroad in your Imaginations; But theirs was gathering in the Spirit: ſo that is plaine that which you have ſet up is but Imaginations, for it is not according to the letter being erred from it, both in the call, manner, and the end, for what is taken up from the letter muſt in all things follow the patterne, he being curſed that adds or diminiſhes; And from the Spirit thou canſt not have it, who art not baptized with the Holy Ghoſt thy ſelfe, nor having any immediate Call from the perſon of Chriſt.

So with the light of Chriſt in thy conſcience take notice what thou art doing, and repent; Ceaſe to keep people in blindneſſe, and from going right on their way, by thy traditi­tions; and if Paul ſaid they were bewitched who had begun in the Spirit and was led back by ſuch into Circumciſion (though a true command of God) then read thy work, who art drawing people into thy tradition, which (as thou perfor­meſt it) was never commanded of God, nor ever ſo practiſed by any who had the Spirit of God.

So if you who are called Anabaptiſts conſider your unfaith­fulneſſe to your principles as to that which ſhould have led10 you out of conformity to the world and their worſhips and fa­ſhions, and ſeriouſly weigh in the light of Chriſt; you may ſee more cauſe to repent of your ſticking in that of water (both out of the form and power) then of accuſing others for neglect, who are going on in obedience to the Spirit bearing witneſſe againſt all the worlds wickedneſſe vaine worſhips and cuſtomes and yours among the reſt.

From a lover of your ſoules, but not of your deceit, J: N:

The fourth Error thou chargeſt us with, is becauſe we bear Teſtimony to the Light of Chriſt which lighteth every one that cometh into the world, and that this ſpirituall light of Chriſt is ſufficient to teach in all the wayes of God, and lead to God, and this is counted and Error, and yet in thy 36 page doth confeſſe the ſufficiency thereof; andthis is it that is our teaching, which is witneſſed in plaines by Chriſt, the Prophets & Apoſtles, as John 1. 9. Joh. 8. 12. Joh. 5. 33. and herein thou canſt not ſlander us, but Chriſt and the holy men of God muſt ſuffer with us: But ſayeſt thou, it is true that Chriſt is the true light, and lighteth every man that cometh into the world, but not within, ſo that our Errour muſt be that we ſay the Light of Chriſt is ſpirituall, and within, and herein we have the witneſſe of all thoſe who had the faith of Chriſt, and thereby knew what this light was, which was in darkneſſe, though the darkneſſe comprehended it not, as Joh. 1. 5. which ſhined out of darkneſſe in their hearts, which treaſure they had in Earthen veſſells, 2 Cor. 4. 6, 7. Epheſ. 5. 13. with many other places, and much it matters not what the Infidell who hath denyed the faith of Chriſt ſaith againſt it.

Some Queries thou askes, which I ſhall anſwer ſo far as there is any thing worth the anſwering in them.

  • 1. Firſt then, what need is there of Scripture to declare the mind of God. I anſwer, they teſtifie hereof againſt ſuch as thee.
  • 112. Whether that Light will ſhew that the Virgin had a Son?
  • 3. Can it ſhew that Chriſt dyed and roſe againe in three dayes?
  • 4. What favour it was to the people of Iſrael to have the written Law? &c.
  • 5. Whether men by the Light within could have known Chriſt ſhould have been born at Jeruſalem, &c.

To all which I anſwer, all theſe things and much more was made known by the Light before they was written in the let­ter, but being believed generally, there is no ſuch neceſſity that he ſhould make a declaration of thoſe things againe, in this Nation, but that he ſhould Miniſter the ſubſtance (to wit) Chriſt in Spirit, which none can know without this Light though they have the letter, no more then they could know Chriſt when he came, who read in the letter that he was to be born at Bethlem, who might as well have askt him (who bad them believe in the Light of the world, that they might be the children of Light) but would this Light have told us that there was an Ark builded by Moſes, and a Temple builded by Solomon, and how many years it was a building, and many o­ther viſible things, which they too much doated on already, and here (was thou not blind) might thou read thy ſelfe, and more of thy Generation, and ſee that the end of thy Queries is but to diſcover thy ſelfe where thou art.

Thou askes further, Whether the Name of Chriſt may be known to all the world by the Light within them, without Scripture or tradition? I ſay, yea, and by nothing elſe with­out it, for the Name of Chriſt conſiſts not of Letters and ſilla­bles, but in righteouſneſſe, mercy, and judgement, &c. which Name none can know but by the Light of the world, though many of you read your Bibles who are the greateſt e­nemies to his Name, ſuch is your knowledge as appears by your practice.

Other Queſtions thou askes the ſubſtance whereof is, What then needs our books or our preaching? is not that ſuperflu­ous? I ſay, our preaching ſerves to direct people to the light, which ſuch as thou who are Reprobate to the Faith of Chriſt,12 and knows not the myſtery thereof which is held in a pure conſcience have led them out from; and ſome of our Book ſerve to manifeſt your folly and wickedneſſe before all the world, but hadſt thou not been partially blind thou might ask thy ſelfe this queſtion, and thy Brethren, who would make the letter the Light, and would hold it forth onely for ſufficiency, what need your divining from it, if it be ſufficient of it ſelfe, but thy faith teacheth not that doctrine to doe as they would be done by.

Thy fifth errour thou chargeſt us with is touching John Lawſon, being accuſed for ſaying the day of judgement was paſt, and this is an accuſation like the reſt, & thou ſays he goes about to prove it in Sauls Errand, ſo he having anſwered for himſelfe it may be ſeen whether he own it or no by them that read that book: For thoſe words wherewith he is accuſed I own not.

The ſixth Errour, thou ſayeſt that George Fox ſaid he was the eternall Judge of the world, and thy proofe is the Prieſts Petition, and that George denies it not as thou ſayes, but ſaith the Saints ſhall judge the world to which I ſay to what George ſaith herein we own, but the Prieſts accuſation and thy proofe we deny.

Thy ſeventh errour was that George Fox ſaid, I am the way the truth and the life, and this thou proves like the reſt, as thou proved foaming at our meetings, becauſe he denies it not but ſaith the old Man cannot endure to hear the new man ſpeak; and ſo doe I ſay ſo alſo, for where Chriſt ſpeaks in Male or Female, he is what he teſtifies himſelfe to be; if thou canſt receive it thou may.

Thy eigth Errour is that Fox ſaid, that he which took a text of Scripture and made a Sermon of it was a Conjurer, and this thou would diſprove by Phillips ſpeaking to the Eunuch, to which I ſay, thoſe are not Georges words as thou ſpeaks them, but the words of the accuſer, neither did George ſpeak of what Phillip did, who was immediately ſent of God, nor of what was done in that generation by them who owned the ſpirituall Light of Chriſt, but of what is done now by ſuch Di­viners as deny the Faith of Chriſt, and his Call and Spirit in13 them, and what ſuch raiſeth muſt needs be conjuration, who denyes the faith and Spirit of God.

Thy ninth Errour is that he ſaith the Scriptures are carnall, and this is a lye like the reſt, for he ſaith the letter of the Scrip­tures are carnall, for a Scripture is known before the letter was (though the blind ſee it not) and that Scripture we doe not ſay is carnall, but own it to be the word of God, and our Rule, who doe not walk after a carnall rule, though not con­trary to the letter.

Thy tenth Errour is againſt one Leonard Hill a name I nei­ther know nor own, and ſo I paſſe it by as not neceſſary for me to contend about.

The eleaventh Errour is John Lawſon againe that he ſaid he had been in Hell and is now in Heaven, to which I ſay, though it ſeem an Errour to thee yet this is plaine that the Saints have witneſſed being in Hell, and in Heaven alſo, as is plain in Scrip­ture, which thou that calls it an error art ignorant of, as is plain in theſe Scriptures with divers others, Jonah 2. 2. Pſal. 16. 10. Epheſ. 2 6. 2 Cor. 12. 2, 4. And they was not in an errour who witneſſed this, nor he if it was true in him.

Thy twelſth Errour is that we ſay, we are perfect, and ſin not, and this thou repeats over againe in thy eighteenth Error and calls it a lye, but the lye being thine own twice told over I leave it with thee till thou prove it yet doe we own perfecti­on and believe in it, which is not that we never had as thou falſly ſayeſt, but as we have received Chriſt ſo we have recei­ved perfection in whom all ſelfe boaſting is excluded.

Thy thirteenth errour is, that James Nayler ſaid that none can come unto God or Chriſt, but who come to perfection, whereby it ſeems thou denies God or Chriſt to be perfection, for be they granted to be perfection, then none can come to them, but they come to perfection.

But how blinde thou art who calls this an Errour is eaſily ſeen, thy faith and thy doctrine who preaches againſt perfection, but the Miniſters of Chriſt preached to preſent eve­ry man perfect, which thou preaches gainſt, Eph. 4. 11, 12, 13. Col. 1. 28. So we rather chuſe the Apoſtles doctrine which ſtanding in the faith of God which believes perfection,14 though by the Infidells it be called Errour, then imbrace a doctrine of Devills that doth not believe perfection, neither was there ever any of the children of God in thy work plead­ing againſt perfection, and for ſin dwelling in them.

Thy fourteenth Errour is, that I ſay that at all ſeaſons whenſoever the Saints either eat or drink they were to have Communion with the body and blood of Chriſt in their eat­ing and drinking; I ſay, this muſt needs be counted an Error with the belly Gods of the world, who deny the faith of Chriſt, and ſo know no word in them to ſanctifie the Crea­ture, ſuch is not like to have Communion with Chriſt, but with the luſt, who ſerve their own bellies, who are at the ta­ble of Devills are not like to have Communion with the Lord, but are obſervers of times, and carnall things, and therefore to ſuch it muſt needs be counted an Errour ſo often as they eat and drink thereof to doe it in remembrance of him till he come, if this be received for a truth, the Devill knows there is no place for the Luſt, and ſo would hold it for an errour, that he might feed without fear.

Thy fifteenth Errour is that James Parnell denyed all Bap­tiſmes but that of the holy Ghoſt, ſo that to own the Baptiſm of Chriſt and to deny all elſe with thee is counted an errour, but did not the Apoſtle erre alſo, who ſaid we are all baptized into one body by one Spirit, and witneſſed one faith and one baptiſme, and ſaid he was not ſent to baptize, and this he wit­neſſed who had the faith of Chriſt, which thy faith counts an Errour.

And thou goes about to prove your water by queſtions and crooked conſequences, as from Circumciſion and the like, but cannot find one Scripture that doth command it with water, after Chriſt ſufferings or otherwiſe then Johns miniſtry, where­in all may ſee your foundation, who ſay the Scripture is your Rule, but cannot find one plaine Scripture for that which you ſo highly worſhip and would impoſe upon all, as a matter of ſalvation but muſt flye to your conſequences, to hold up that which you would make people believe is an everlaſting Ordinance, for which you can ſhew no command neither from Letter, nor Spirit; Moſes in all his houſe left his Ordinances15 upon better grounds then conſequences and meanings, and that he which is much more faithfull ſhould come ſhort is not believed by thoſe that know him, but ſuppoſe that any doe yet own that forme of Baptiſme uſed by the Diſciples in John Miniſtration, with that they muſt deny your tradition which miſſeth theirs both in Call, Manners, and Find, as I have often proved; for he that faith the Letter is his rule muſt not miſſe it in any thing, for it they break it in one he is guilty of all, much more you that miſſe in the maine.

Thy ſixteenth errour is that we preach that every Man in the world hath a light within him, and yet one of us thou ſay­eſt asked a Miniſter of the Nation, whether he had that light which doth enlighten every one that comes into the world, ſo that to ask a queſtion which is a known Truth to prove the party asked with thee muſt be an Errour; and this thou hoy­ſeth up with great ſwelling words, as though it were the grea­teſt Errour that ever was in the world, and ſayes herein we are the ſad ſpectacle of Gods ſpirituall judgements that ever any age hath heard of, and many ſuch loud exclamations a­gainſt us for this great Errour.

But what thinks thou of Chriſt? who askt the Diſciples whom they ſaid he was, and yet knew they had this light in them which revealed him to be the Son of God, hadſt thou then lived and heard it, he ſhould not have eſcaped thy cen­ſure, beſides many other queſtions that he asked well known to him before the asking of them.

And thou goes on heaping up a deal of confuſion, and ac­cuſes ſome body (but names not who) ſor ſaying that they might as well have burt the Scripture, as his writing being gi­ven forth by the ſame Spirit the Scriptures were, and by this thou ſayeſt all that thou haſt ſaid is juſtified, to which I ſay, the works of the Spirit are known to be the ſame in their seve­rall meaſures as ever they was, neither is it to be more under­valued then formerly, but how that Man ſaying ſo (if any ſuch there was) doth juſtifie all thy lyes and falſe accuſations caſt upon us, is a ſlender proof, yet if we will believe thee it juſtifies all.

16Thy ſeaventeenth Errour is thy lye, where thou ſayes we ſtudy and deviſe deceitfull tearmes, that look with two faces like the Oracles of the Heathen Gods. And the ſubſtance of this ſlander is, becauſe that Farnſworth when he was charged to ſay that Paul was not converted when he ſpoke thoſe words in the 7 of the Romans, he denyes that he doth affirme any ſuch thing; and this is counted a great Errour, for ſayes thou it was a negative, as though it was not an affirmative to affirme there is not ſuch a thing as well as to affirme there is ſuch a thing, and this thou aggravates as a great offence, whereby thou ſhews in plainneſſe to all that are honeſt, that thou canſt find nothing of matter againſt us, therefore thy miſchievous minde having a mind to ſlander, hath the thing to make out of thine own boſome wherewithall to doe it.

Thy eighteenth Errour is that which thou call our lying.

Firſt, in that we ſay we are perfect, and this is a lie of thy own, and ſhall reſt upon thy head, till thou prove we have ſo ſaid.

The ſecond is that we ſay we are immediately ſent of God, which is a truth in them who are ſo ſent ſo to ſay, and the lie is thine own till thou prove the contrary.

The third lie is that one Fox ſaid, the world did not know his Name, and yet after ſaith, known by the Name of George Fox. I ſay, the Saints who have over come have a new name, which none knows but he that hath it, yet all the knowledge the men have of them is by a carnall name, and this is true and witneſſed onely the lye is in thy own ignorance.

The fourth lye is that Edward Burrough ſaid his Book was ſealed with the Spirit, and this is called a lye, but not pro­ved one, and time will prove it otherwiſe.

The fifth lye is that James Naylor in a written Paper calls thee ſhameleſſe Man for tempting him to deny the Lord.

The ſixth lye is that James Naylor in the ſame Paper ſaid, if he had come in his own name thou wouldſt have received him, as was confeſſed by thee.

To both which I anſwer, as many can witneſſe with me at17 the diſpute, which occaſioned the Letter, when I denyed thy faith to be the the faith of God, or any of his Saints, and prof­fered to prove it ſo before all the people, if thou would put it upon tryall, thou denyed my requeſt, unleſſe I would deny my Call from God, and ſay I was called ſome other way, or elſe there work a miracle, and then thou wouldſt put thy faith on tryall, according to my requeſt; which if this was not to tempt me to deny the Lord and his Call, to ob­taine a diſpute, wherein I could not be received while I confeſ­ſed to come in the Name of God, which another way in my own name and will thou proffered to receive me; And this being done before many witneſſes, was the occaſion of theſe words in my Letter, as followeth.

O Shameleſs man! was ever ſuch a thing demanded by any child of God, to tempt one to deny the Lord, yea the Heathen would bluſh at ſuch a thing, to ſend for one to diſ­pute, and then to deny to come t otryall with that they call the Rule and touchſtone, unleſſe they whom they did diſpute with would deny their God firſt: Haſt not thou proved thy ſelfe worſe then any that ever diſputed with the Apoſtles or any of the Servants of God that ever he ſent forth? Doſt thou profeſſe the Scriptures, and is it become ſuch an odi­ous thing to thee to come in the name of God, that for that very thing thou druſt not put thy Faith upon tryall by Scripture? nor could18 receive me, but if I would come in my own name thou would, as thou plainly confeſſed that if I would ſay I was not ſent of God thou would put thy Faith upon tryall, &c. Now the things being true before related, as many can witneſſe, where the lye is in theſe words, let honeſty judge, and let any mind the wicked one how he hath perverted my words to ſlander me with, ſaying that I ſaid, if I had come in my own name he would have received me, as ſaith he, I ſaid, he did plainly confeſſe and leaves out the reſt, which words as I writ them runs thus, as thou plainly confeſſed, That if I would ſay I was not ſent of God, then thou would put thy Faith on tryall; The truth of which words will be witneſſed by many that heard that thou pretended that very thing to hinder the tryall of thy faith, becauſe of my co­ming in the name of God.

And further thou added, that if I was one ſent of God it was to no purpoſe to put thy faith on tryall with me, for I would over­turne all thy proofes, or words to that purpoſe, as may be teſtified by many witneſſes; So the lyes be to thy ſelfe, and on thy head, till thou repent thereof, but peace and truth to him that loves it.

Thy ſeventh lie is, that while one ran from Bull & Mouth to thy houſe for the Paper, I ſlipt away, which is a moſt abo­minable falſhood, as hundreds can witneſſe, that I went not a­way till the meeting broke up, neither knew I of any ſuch thing as the Letter fetching, neither have I yet run from your filthy lyes & envy, much les ſhall I run from the truths written with my own hand, which I here have owned and clearly proved to19 be truth, & thee to be the lyar, and and ſhall further doe it if to the truth it may be ſervice able.

And when thou haſt done, thou ſayeſt, theſe a are but a few of thoſe Legions of Lyes that are in our writings and preach­ings, when the Lyes are thy own, raiſed by that Spirit of In­ſidelity, who having denyed the Faith of Chriſt would turne his truth into a lye, and was thou not impudent in thy wicked­neſſe, thou might be aſhamed of thy birth thou haſt brought forth, who hath been hunting for accuſations againſt the truth but canſt find none, and ſo runs to a ſort of hurling Prieſts, and their falſe accuſations thou preacheſt for Truths, being of the ſame nature with them, their reports agree moſt with thy ſpi­rit, and thy foundation being deceit, thy work falls upon thy own head. Then thou makes a boaſt of ſomething that thou wouldſt prove, & the firſt thing is, the writings of the Scripture to be the word of God, & this thou wouldſt prove from Mark 7. to. where Chriſt ſaith, They that doe not honour their father and mother maketh the word of God of none effect, & ſaying, that he faith their making this written Law of none ef­fect which is falſe, for his words are, Making the word of God of none effect through your traditions, but thou that wouldſt make the letter of that command the word which was written in ſtone, if thou readeſt 2 Cor. 3. thou mighſt find the Apo­ſtle denies that, or to be any Miniſter of it, and ſaith that mi­niſtration is done away, and owns the miniſtration of the Spirit, and not of the letter, ſo thou haſt loſt thy word if the Apoſtle ſaith true, and a new proofe thou muſt ſeek to prove the letter the word; Another proofe thou brings is from Jer. 36. where thou wouldſt prove that the letter of that Role is the word of God which Baruck read, ſo by thy proofe the word of God may be burnt if that Role be it, and ſo thy word of God is loſt, that which was written in that Role not ſo much as being in the Bible, and with ſuch confuſed ſtuffe as this thou makeſt thy proofes which the leaſt of wiſdome would be aſhamed of; If that engraven in ſtone be the word, and that in Baruks role the word, and both wanting, the letter of the one and the mat­ter of the other then there is two of the words loſt, and how thou wilt prove that which is loſt to be the word now, wiſ­dome may judge, who knowes the word of the Lord that endures for ever, what ever becomes of the letter;20 but a literall miniſtration ſuits beſt with thy made faith, how ſhould that faith which comes not from God believe the li­ving word, but like thy fore-fathers the Jews, who were deaf and blind as thou art, who could read the Scriptures, but the word of God had no place in them, who could heare Chriſt ſpeak literally with their carnall ears, but could not hear his word.

Thy next proofe is as confuſed as the reſt, thou ſayeſt thou would prove the Scriptures to be the word of God out of our own mouths, and yet thy accuſation againſt us, is that we de­ny the Scriptures to be the word, what conjuration is this, that thou art about, who canſt prove an affirmative out of a negative, if our mouths doe prove the Scripture to be the word, then ſtop thy mouth, who charges us for to denie it.

But thou goeſt on with thy divination, becauſe we ſay the Scriptures are a declaration of the mind of God, from that thou devineſt thus,

That which declares Gods will is Gods word.
But the Scriptures declares Gods will.
Ergo, It is Gods word.
As much as if thou hadſt ſaid,
Balaams Aſſe declared Gods will.
Ergo, Balaams Aſſe is Gods word.

Which I think few will affirme, yet ſuch is thy divination and thy proofe in this like the reſt of thy Book.

And when thou haſt thus done, thou belyeſt us againe, ſay­ing, that we ſay the Scriptures are not Gods word, which is falſe, for where the Scriptures are given by Inſpiration of God it is Gods word, but when the Devill or the Infidell ſteals them out of a Book, he gets but the letter, which he wreſteth to his own deſtruction, in denying the Spirit there­with, and oppoſing Chriſt the light of the world, which is the next thing thou ſetteſt upon.

And though thou be made to confeſſe that Chriſt is the true light that lighteth every man that coms into the world, yet would thou make people believe it is not ſufficient, and calls it an Errour for us to ſay that this light is able to teach a21 man to worſhip God rightly, and yet here confounds thy ſelfe, and confeſſeth that its nature and property hath ſuch at­tendency, that is, ſayeſt thou, as if God had ſaid, I have done that which is ſufficient for thy purgation, and thus thou applyeſt to the light of Chriſt to prove that it is not ſufficient, and in plaine words afterwards confeſſeth that Chriſt had done that which is able to enlighten and informe the world, and this light thou confeſſeſt he hath enlightned every one withall, and yet calls it an Errour for us to ſay that his light is ſufficient. Hath not thy imaginations blinded thee herein? doth this true light enlighten every man that cometh into the world? and is able to enlighten and informe the world into the knowledge of it? and hath it ſuch a nature property and tendency, and yet muſt be an errour to ſay that it is ſufficient to guide in the wayes of God? It ſeemeth thou mayeſt ſay a thing and confeſſe it for truth who denies it in the life, but if we ſay it that live in it, it is counted an Errour.

The next piece of thy divination is, that if every man have received this light, then every man hath received Chriſt, for he is that Light; and in this here is a double deceit.

Firſt, in ſeeming to deny what before thou confeſſed, that Chriſt enlightens every man that comes into the world.

Secondly, becauſe Chriſt is that light, thou wouldſt make that light Chriſt, which many have the light of Chriſt, which lets them ſee their evill deeds, but not believing and following never come to the new Birth or Chriſt formed in them, but walk in darkneſſe though they ſee the light that doth reprove them, thou bringeſt that Scripture, John 11. 10. But if a man walk in the night he ſtumbleth, becauſe there is no light in him. And with this thou wouldſt deny that the light is in every man, when as the words hath relation to his way; which is true, in the way of the wicked there is no light, yet in the heart of the wicked there is a light which condemns his wicked wayes, who is gone out of the light into the darkneſſe, and ſo being in the night ſtumbles, becauſe the light is not in that way, but in that which reproves that way; ſo that he that is in ſelfe is in darkneſſe, yet doth the light ſhine in the darkneſſe, which manifeſts the deeds of darkneſſe and reproves22 them, and this ſhall all men witneſſe to, whereby thy deceite ſhall be daily more laid open.

Thy next thing thou wouldſt prove that the day of Judge­ment is not paſt, I ſay, my deſire is that thou wouldſt mind it, and prepare for it, by leaving thy lying and deceit and wick­ed envy, for a wofull day will that be to thee if thou be found in thy ſin & pleading for it, unrepented of all this heap of confuſion in thy Book which thou haſt raked together to caſt upon the Truth, will then lye heavy upon thy Head.

For thy Water, Bread and Wine &c. I have ſpoken to for­merly, which may ſtand till it be diſproved.

Thy next work is to prove reſpect of perſons, a thing which God never commanded, but hath often forbidden, neither canſt thou find one Scripture that commands it, yet thy impudency is ſuch that thou perverts that Scripture, Lev. 19. 32. into a lye, and faith it is, Thou ſhalt honour the perſon; What a ſtanding Rule is this word of yours, that the deceite can thus turne quite into another thing then it ſpeaks, the Devill likes ſuch a word as he can turne every way to plead for his kingdome.

With it he can plead for his pride, though it condemns pride. For reſpect of perſons, though it forbid reſpect of perſons.

For ſwearing, though it ſay, Swear not at all.

Nay, is there any thing ſo vile, which his ſubtilty in his ſer­vants cannot plead for therewith, no wonder though in all his he thus contends for that to be the word which he can thus wreſt, for if the creature once believeth that to be the word which God hath written in their hearts, which the De­vill cannot change, then is the Devill undone, and his king­dome broken, and his many wayes of deceit hedged up, when that one way and one word comes to be known, which word didſt thou minde would judge the lyar in thee, who faith, we make it a note of our infallible miniſtry that we doe not reverence men, and charges us with denying honour and re­ſpect due to Parents, Maſters, Husbands, and Wives, &c. a thing which never entred into our hearts, but what our words and live doth witneſſe againſt.

23Another lie thou telleſt, That thou dare ſay not one of ten of us ſhall give the ſame Anſwer to a Queſtion. To which I ſay, There is little that may be a reproach to the truth, but thou dare ſay it. But upon what ground doeſt thou ſay this? having never proved ten of us therein, and denying the Spirit of Propheſie in thee, muſt it not be by the Divination of witch­craft, by which thou can foretell ſuch things as never was ſeen nor heard? and indeed the more to be ſuſpected, becauſe it is a lie.

Thy next thing thou would prove, that Chriſt hath two bodies. This I know, That Chriſt is the head of one body, and that Chriſt I own; but how he hath two bodies, and but one head, or how thou wilt ſever Chriſt from that body which aſcended, which is the head, or make that into a head and a body. I ſhall not here diſpute with thee, it ſerveth me to know that that body is my head, and of the Church which is his bo­dy, which cannot be ſaid to be Chriſt diſtinct from that body, and ſo cannot properly be ſaid to have two bodies, the one of them being the Chriſt. Neither doe we herein deny that Chriſt our head to take fleſh wholly, as thou falſly accuſeth us; but we own him that came from Heaven, and is aſcended into Hea­ven, that word that became fleſh, and dwelt among us, which thou knoweſt not, who hath denied that faith which is the gift of God, with Himancus & Pluentus, with whom thou wouldſt charge us, adding a lie thereto, as though we ſay the Reſurre­ction is paſt.

And another lie thou telleſt, that one of us being asked the Queſtion, anſwers that Chriſt was but a figure; and to prove that lie thou ſayeſt, See Sauls Errand to Damaſcus, page 54. when that Book hath but 37 pages in it, a ſutable proof for ſuch a lie. Neither is there ſuch an Anſwer by any of us in all that Book, as thus thou proves thy work with thy owne ſhame.

And thou goes on to tell whom we have affinity with, as Gnoſticks and Mamchers, &c. but is not thy affinity with them who art ſo well skill'd in their Opinions, which we meddle not with; and is it not by their Spirit which thou boaſts to know what ten of us will ſay before hand; their Spirits we24 deny, and thine alſo, with the Papiſts and the reſt, which thy filthy mind would compare us to, to make us odious, that with the reſt of thy bundle of light, vain, frothy talk, and ſtories which thou haſt ſet in thy Book, which airie ſpirit ſtinks, and its words, in the noſtrills of all ſober men, as thy long ſtory of a Monk ſet in a Chaire, of carrying a buſhel of coals to New­castle, of Hares and Hounds, of Apes, and coulting language, and ſuch filthy ſtuffe as thou filleſt thy Book with, might ſute a Stage-play, more like then a ſober Chriſtian; all which we turn thee back, with the heap of thy confuſion which in thy Book is not worth anſwering.

Then thou comeſt to the concluſion, as thou ſayeſt, and thou exhorteſt that every one would compare what thou haſt writ, with the holy Scripture, and then judge. So ſay I alſo, that they may ſee thee a perverter of Scripture, and a liar as I have proved thee.

Another lie thou telleſt alſo, that all that thou haſt writ againſt us, is either from our own mouths, or our own wri­tings, when the greateſt part of the accuſations thou haſt ga­thered out of a bloody perſecuting Petition of the Prieſts of Westmorland, which are their lies caſt upon us, not our words nor writings. And the reſt are ſuch as with thy Divination thou haſt raiſed out of the bottomleſſe pit, which with the truth are turned upon thine own head, but us they touch not. Something more thou makeſt, as though thou couldſt ſay of the evill manners of ſome of our Teachers, but thou forbeateſt. To which I ſay, they that are blind may believe it is thy mode­ration; but who hath an eye to ſee, how into the depth of Satan thou art gone to drag up all this filth in thy book to caſt upon us, who are clear of it. I ſay, he who well notes this, will find cauſe to be of another mind.

Thou addeſt a Postſcript to thy Book, no leſſe full of wic­kedneſſe then the reſt, and that is, wherein thou haſt perverted my words into a lye, who was ſpeaking of the two Seeds, the Old Man and the New, one born after the fleſh, the other af­ter the Spirit; and becauſe I ſaid that Chriſt is not born after the fleſh, but after the Spirit, this thou wouldſt pervert, as though I denied Chriſt come in the fleſh at Jeruſalem, which25 ſome ſeeing thy murtherous mind at that time, did write down the words then ſpoken, and have ſet to their hands, which may ſhew thy wickedneſſe, and clear the truth; as followeth.

22d 4th Month, 1656. At the Bull & Mouth in Martins, London.

JAmes Naylor declaring of the two Seeds, the Seed of the Woman, and the Seed of the Serpent, the light being in the One, and the Darkneſſe in the other; in reference to what Jeremy Ives alledged from that Scripture, He that walketh not according to this Rule, it is becauſe there is no light in him, ſaid, That Chriſt was not born after the fleſh, but after the Spirit; That that which was born after the fleſh was fleſh, and that which was born after the Spirit was Spirit, and except a man was born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ſee the Kingdome of God. Jeremy Ives hearing what was ſpoken, ſaid I have now what I lookt for, and afterwards de­manded of James Naylor the ſame thing againe. James Naylor ſaid, That Chriſt was not borne after the fleſh, but after the Spirit, and immediately ad­joyned, For that which is born after the fleſh is fleſh, and that which is born after the Spirit is Spirit. And alſo ſaid that Chriſt was begotten of the Father, and born of the Virgin, that he was true fleſh, and true blood, and that he appeared in the likeneſſe of ſinfull fleſh, but was not ſinfull26 Heſt. And theſe words he ſpake together, where­of we are Witneſſes.

  • George Biſhop.
  • Richard Greneway.
  • Robert Rich.
  • William Wilſon.
  • Richard Davies.
  • Humfrey Wollrich.
  • Robert Dring.
  • John Clarke.

AND whereas thou ſayeſt, the Scripture makes no ſuch diſtinction, as born after the fleſh, and after the Spirit, read Gal. 4. 29. and thou mayeſt ſee that lie contradicted. And that be that is born after the fleſh is a perſecuter of him that is born after the Spirit. So it was before Chriſt ſuffered at Jeruſalem, and ſo it is now. Neither was Chriſt as he was born of Mary, born after the fleſh, but by promiſe begotten and brought forth, though he was true and holy fleſh in the likeneſſe of ſinſull fleſh, but not ſinfull fleſh being begotten not of ſinfull fleſh, but of the Holy Ghoſt by the word of the promiſe, which word became fleſh, but is not after the fleſh, but how ſhouldſt thou know what he is that came down from Heaven, or how he is born, who haſt denied the faith which is the gift of God. Thy earthly faith knowes not the heavenly body (whoſe fleſh is the life of all Creatures) how it is be­gotten, neither how it is born.

A Promiſe thou makeſt in the latter end of thy Book, which here I mind thee of, which if thou perform, may be profitable to thy ſoule, therefore I am the more willing to put thee on it. The Promiſe is this, That if by the words of truth it ſhall be made manifeſt that thou haſt ſpoken any untruth, thou ſhalt with readineſſe of mind make a publick acknowledge­ment of it unto the world, which if thou perform, now that thy lies are clearly laid open, there is not much of thy Book that muſt ſtand undenied: But that Spirit which made the Promiſe ſo far before hand, whoſe repentance ſtands in thy own will, will never perform this Promiſe. Thou muſt wait for another to perform, to which thou art an enemy in thy Book; for that which leads to tell a lie, doth not lead to re­pent27 of it, That is he wherewith thou a long time haſt been a Sayer and not a Doer. And if to the light of Chriſt in thy conſcience, thou doe not turn, which ſhewes thee this thy wick­edneſſe, by it to be led to repentance, to the Pit thou wilt goe in this thy wickedneſſe, notwithſtanding thy fained Promiſe.

So the many lies and falſe accuſations which doth not ſo much ſtrike at the truth, I paſſe by, as not willing to multi­ply words to clear that which our practiſe proves innocent in all places through the Nation where the light is followed, and either that muſt clear us, or words will not, ſo let the Lord who is our life plead for us. Onely ſome few Queries I ſhall Propound to lay open Truth, and error, to which if thou be as ready to anſwer in ſimplicity, as thou haſt been to ſlander in ſubtilty, that which lies hid may ſooner be brought to light.

The Queries are as followeth.
  • I. WHoſe Spirit is that which men underſtands the Scrip­tures with, and tryes Spirits with, who are without the Spirit of God, ſeeing thou affirms that a man may underſtand Scriptures, and try Spirits without the Spirit of God, and whether that triall be not it which condemns the juſt, or hath God ſet up ſuch a tryer to judge yea or no?
  • II. Seeing thou confeſſeth Chriſt to be the true light, and that he lighteth every man that cometh into the world, but denyes that light to be within, ſhew in plainneſſe where he doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world, and not within, and how they come by it; and ſeeing thou ſayeſt every man hath it, how have they it, and not within?
  • III. Seeing thou confeſſeth that the Heathen hath a light that re­proves them of ſin: but not within, ſhew where it is what it is, whether the light of Chriſt or no, and how they came by it?
  • IV. Whether that which reproves the Heathen when they ſin, be the ſame that reproves thee when thou ſins, and the reſt who call28 your ſelves believers, and whether it be in the ſame place, and of the ſame nature, or wherein doth it differ as to place, nature, and operation?
  • V. Whether your light, who call your ſelves believers, be within you or no, and if within, how you came by it when you were in dark­neſſe, as the moving cauſe, and if without, how doth it enlight­en you and not within, and where doth it abide for you that is not in you?
  • VI. Whether that light which is not within, can enlighten the heart and under ſtanding, whether the Goſpel be not hid to all who have their hearts and minds blinded, and whether it be not the work of the God of this world to blind hearts; whether ſuch as deny the light within, and preach againſt it, leaſt peo­ple ſhould believe in it, be not in his work and Miniſtry yea or no?
  • VII. What kind of faith thine is, who haſt denyed that faith that is the gift of God, and how thou came by it, which God did not give thee, and whether that faith which is not of God, be not of the Devill yea or no?
  • VIII. Did ever any of the Saints profeſſe a faith which they received not of God, and whether thy contention be for the faith once de­livered to the Saints, and if ſo, from whom hadſt thou it, ſee­ing thou denyes it to be the gift of God?
  • IX. What faith is that which pleads for ſin, and preaches againſt per­fection, that believes that they can never be free from ſix, nor come to perfection while they are in this world, ſhow the Saint that ſo believed, and ſo preached?
  • X. Was not the end of Chriſts Miniſtry for perfecting the Saints, and is not that Antichriſt whoſe Miniſtry is againſt it, or is Chriſts Miniſtry now changed againſt what it was?
  • XI. Whether that faith that is not of God can receive the things of29 God, or can be imputed for righteouſneſſe to him that hath it, and is not his righteouſneſſe of himſelf, whoſe faith is of him­ſelf, or can it be otherwiſe if it be the righteouſneſſe of faith?
  • XII. Whether he that hath not received the faith of God be not an In­fidell, or is he to be believed in matters of God and Chriſt, and being of a falſe faith, is it ſafe to believe what he ſaith againſt the Children of light?
  • XIII. Whether it be not plain nonſenſe to ſay that Chriſt doth enlighten every one that comes into the world. (as thou doeſt confeſſe in thy Book) and then to deny that light to be in, that enlightens?
  • XIV. Whether Paul was rightly called and endued to the Miniſtry, who was not ſent to Baptize, and whether it was not a ſigne that John was decreaſing, and Chriſt increaſing, that being left out in Pauls Command, who was called after Chriſt was offered up, or cannot a man now be a Miniſter of Chriſt, and not ſent to Baptize?
  • XV. Seeing the laſt of Matthew is your ſtrength for water baptiſm, I ask whether one may not be baptized into the Name of the Fa­ther, Son, and Holy Ghoſt, without being dipped in carnall water; alſo whether all you dip in the water, you doe baptize them into the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghoſt; if the firſt of theſe be yea, and the latter no, then I conclude car­nall dipping is not the thing?
  • XVI. Doth every one that reads the Bible. hear the word of God, or hath every one the word that hath a Bible; and what difference is there betwixt the miniſtration of the letter now, and that in the Jewes time, both denying the light, and the faith which is the gift of God, and will this ſave now, without the miniſtration of the Spirit, more then in their dayes?
  • XVII. Whether that righteouſneſſe that a man reads of in the letter, ſets himſelf to doe the like without that faith which is the gift of God, or the leading of the light of Chriſt the miniſtration of the Spirit, be the righteouſneſſe of faith, or ſelfe righteouſneſſe?

30Now I appear to every honeſt heart, that I have not pro­poſed theſe Queries out of curioſity, or to dive into things above the meaſure of a Chriſtian, but that which every one ought to know who profeſſes not ſo high as thou doeſt. So that if it be not thy ſubtilty, leaſt thou ſhouldeſt be diſcove­red, thou needeſt not be letted from anſwering in plainneſſe, that thy faith may be known, what it is thou contends for, that ſo ſimple ones may not be beguiled with fained ſuttlery, in­ſtead of faith, for if the faith be falſe, that profeſſion ſtinks, and the Profeſſor thereof is not to be believed in whatever he ſaith touching Religion.


About this transcription

TextWeaknes above wickednes, and truth above subtilty. Which is the Quakers defence against the boaster and his deceitfull slanders. Clearly seen in an answer to a book called Quakers quaking; devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world, and scorned by the scorners. In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome, and the truth cleared from the accuser. In much plainesse, that the simple may see and perceive, and come to be gathered to the Lamb, from amongst the armies of the wicked, who have now set themselves against the Lord, and sees it not. Also some queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false doctrine and deceits. / by one who is called, James Nayler.
AuthorNaylor, James, 1617?-1660..
Extent Approx. 65 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images.
SeriesEarly English books online.
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(EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A89859)

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Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 2625:12)

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Bibliographic informationWeaknes above wickednes, and truth above subtilty. Which is the Quakers defence against the boaster and his deceitfull slanders. Clearly seen in an answer to a book called Quakers quaking; devised by Jeremiah Ive's against the dispised contemptible people trampled on by the world, and scorned by the scorners. In which the deceits are turned into the deceivers bosome, and the truth cleared from the accuser. In much plainesse, that the simple may see and perceive, and come to be gathered to the Lamb, from amongst the armies of the wicked, who have now set themselves against the Lord, and sees it not. Also some queries to Jeremy Ive's touching his false doctrine and deceits. / by one who is called, James Nayler. Naylor, James, 1617?-1660.. [2], 30 p. Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black-spread-Eagle, near the West end of Pauls.,London :1656.. (Reproduction of original in the Bodleian Library.)
  • Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1563-1674. -- Quakers quaking, or, The foundation of their deceipt shaken, both in their quakings, doctrines, ministerie, and lives
  • Quakers -- Apologetic works.

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ImprintAnn Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2011-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 2).
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